[rich-and-poor]

You find racial discrimination acceptable? Or also virtuous? Is it a good goal to strive for in 21st century society? Do you find virtue in breaking people up into racial and gendered groups, and then applying pre-calculated policies to "even them out"?

[psergeant]

> You find racial discrimination acceptable

Clearly.

> Is it a good goal etc

It’s not a goal, it’s a tool to combat systemic racism.

> Do you find virtue

Here’s what I think:

I think there’s no inherent genetic gender or race component that should impact outcomes in people’s relative success. If you believe there is, you are literally a racist or a sexist, by the very definitions of those terms. Given that, if you can predict a group of people’s outcomes based on their race or gender, there is an inequality of opportunity. I believe that the inequality of opportunity should be tackled.

I believe that tackling this is an urgent issue. I believe that affirmative action — like setting up these funds — is a working solution.

[jamescostian]

The idea is that they were already broken up and artifically made uneven, so the point here is to go in reverse and as you said "even them out"

I'd be interested in alternative solutions - what would you suggest? Keep in mind that not doing anything doesn't seem to fix these things.

[rich-and-poor]

> alternative solutions

I'll give it a go. I first want to say something about the worldview required to do this sort of racial discrimination.

There is no way of quantifying the relative advantages and disadvantages between identity groups. How much is one group oppressed over another? Suppose that a simple tax would suffice to even things out, exactly how much should that tax be? There is no way of knowing precisely what that tax should be. Our attempts to define oppression are never going to be rigorous. They'll always be vague, which I believe is dangerous, since it will be enforced by some large bureaucracy. We need definition, but there will never be definition accurate enough. Feel free to argue me on this, but I don't see how you can do it.

Second, in separating people into these identity groups, you deny my individuality. Every time I speak, I speak as a member of my group, for my group. My actions are actions of and for my group, as well. With the world view taken here, I cannot speak or act without the presupposition that I'm doing it as a move in a power game between my identity group and other identity groups. Should we accept that a person's ethnicity and gender must always qualify their speech and actions?

I agree that in conversation, one can observe the race and gender of the other person - but the merit of their words is still paramount. You may know that a book author is from Spain or Russia, but that does not affect how you read the book. However, in the worldview in which a racially discriminatory VC fund is socially acceptable, people are defined as members of groups among other groups, constantly vying for power and oppressing one another.

Notice I'm not really going after the racially-discriminatory VC fund itself. I'm explaining the worldview in which the fund was conceived, and in which it is socially acceptable. It boils North America down from a melting pot of ambitious individuals trying to do great things with each other, into identity groups that are constantly holding power over, and suffering under the tyranny of, other identity groups. Obviously, the dominant narrative here is that white males are oppressing women of color founders. But you have no idea about the individual biases of the white males you're decrying. And you also have no idea whether or not they achieved funded status based on their competence. Yet you still assume the system is broken, and you still rob them of their individuality, still knowing nothing of their biases and nothing of their competence.

> Keep in mind that not doing anything doesn't seem to fix these things.

Why must we do something? Where is the evidence that people are not choosing to be founders of their free will? How can you be sure that the lack of founder diversity is evidence of a flaw in the system? I say that the system is operating in a very healthy manner.

Efforts to move power to the disadvantaged that disregard individuality has had tragic, deadly results in history (China, Vietnam, USSR).

[jamescostian]

> There is no way of quantifying the relative advantages and disadvantages between identity groups

I agree with this idea when you talk about giving a very specific quantity, but I'd argue that gathering some data can tell you that there is some significant disadvantage for some group relative to another. But yes, we will never get to a point where every group is 100% exactly equal. I'm not asking for Communism.

> in separating people into these identity groups, you deny my individuality

Yes, and that definitely sucks. I don't like my individuality being denied either. It's definitely a significant drawback, and again, I'd welcome an alternative solution.

> Yet you still assume the system is broken, and you still rob them of their individuality, still knowing nothing of their biases and nothing of their competence

I don't seek to rob white men (like myself) of individuality or to ignore their/my biases or competence or achievements or anything. I've been programming since I was eight but when looking for scholarships, it was harder for me to find any than it was for friends of mine who were in minority groups but didn't have any experience. I still can notice an issue, see people taking steps to solve it, and then decide that while these steps seem quite morally wrong and put me personally at a disadvantage, doing nothing seems like being complicit in something that was created out of the same kind of moral wrongdoings, and isn't getting any better. I'm not a fan of fighting fire with fire, but I don't see a better alternative.

Speaking of alternatives, I don't see you providing any...

> Where is the evidence that people are not choosing to be founders of their free will? How can you be sure that the lack of founder diversity is evidence of a flaw in the system?

http://fortune.com/2018/01/31/female-founders-venture-capita...

https://www.fastcompany.com/40473294/one-reason-black-entrep...

https://www.fastcompany.com/3060169/one-of-the-biggest-chall...

https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbesnonprofitcouncil/2018/02/...

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidteten/2014/04/29/why-are-v...

You're right that quantifying these things gets messy, but when I look at these things, I see that the system is skewed in favor of white men. Just look at the number "76%" (the amount of white male Venture Capitalists) and the fact that racism and sexism are definitely present today, and then try to say that the system as it is is fair.

If you want to argue that we'll never know what's the optimal amount of fair or that we'll never reach 100% exactly fair, then ok - I agree. If you want to argue that this worldview is bad, then ok - I agree. I also agree that it's bad to take away individuality, and to put people in boxes. But I don't see an alternative, and I do see a problem, and I don't see the solution to be much worse than the origins of the problem.