[minor3rd]

I agree with you whole-heartedly.

My programming career has gone from "I don't know the best way to write something", to "I know the best way to write something and I'll do it this way every time", to "often it doesn't fucking matter, just get it done and move along to the next problem".

[jacquesm]

For some applications it does not matter, so if you can afford to write throwaway code then more power to you.

But for many applications it does matter and for those cases you are essentially creating technical debt that will someday be somebody else's problem.

[pmontra]

It depends on the part of the industry one works in. I'm basically a backend developer of web and mobile applications. I don't only code them, I also design or help designing most of the ones I work on.

Most of what we do in this market is reading some form data, JSON, XML, parse it, read/write to a database or some other API, gather results, send them back to the browser as either HTML or JSON.

I checked right now when it was the last time I had to devise some clever algorithm. I was at the end of 2015 in a Rails project. I remembered all the stuff about invariants from my CTO back in 1995 and it did really help. However in this market that's a once in 10 years occurrence, unless one keeps grinding through coding interviews on artificial problems (because those companies are affected by the streetlight effect.)

So, from my point of view "for most applications it does not matter, but for a few of them it does." It probably matters when writing some of the algorithm in the web browser I'm using right now.

[tchaffee]

It's clear a lot of people are taking my initial posts and comments wrong. I work really hard to not create technical debt. All I said was that there are competing requirements you should be weighing and not all of those requirements are technical. And that even the highest quality stuff eventually does break. Of course you should always strive to build high quality and even beautiful code. I take pride in my work. But part of that pride comes from being able to juggle multiple competing requirements and make the best decision for the company.

Sometimes creating technical debt is the right decision. Sometimes it's "get over this budget hump using two devs instead of five or we go out of business". And then you do get over it and all of a sudden the company is hugely successful and it's a good problem but you're working really long hours just trying to keep up with helping all that cash flow in... the real world rarely makes conditions so perfect you can write perfect code.

I strongly dislike it when I make the decision to create tech debt, but I will at least leave comments or documentation for the next guy on the parts I think could use more love.

And it's rare I do create it. I actually spend a large part of my time refactoring code and making it better and reducing technical debt. It's one of my favorite things to do. And that points right back to my original post. You know what's interesting about the code I refactor? It's working code. It solves the problem. I wouldn't want to build something bigger on it without refactoring. But I also wouldn't curse out the guy who wrote it. He solved the problem at the time within the budget and time constraints and other competing requirements he was juggling. Good for him.

[pdimitar]

> Sometimes it's "get over this budget hump using two devs instead of five or we go out of business". And then you do get over it and all of a sudden the company is hugely successful...

Seems you are judging from the SV / startup / USA bubble. Most of the world works in VERY different conditions than that.

I mean yeah, bosses whipping their devs for maximum throughput happens everywhere but the combination of factors you describe seems to be specific for USA.

[tchaffee]

I've worked in Europe, Asia, the USA, for quite a few startups, huge corps, and have started a couple of successful companies here and there myself. I have a long and varied career that I am very grateful for.

A lot of startups are actually obsessed with quality to the point of failing. I've seen that. I've also seen the opposite. There is a lot of variation in the myths founders create that they follow like a religion because they believe it's the one trick they need for success ;-)

You do eventually run out of money. It's so much more important to ship something to customers to get some feedback than it is to get it perfect. It's a very tricky balance to get right though. It has to look and work good enough to not scare potential customers away.

[pdimitar]

> It's so much more important to ship something to customers to get some feedback than it is to get it perfect.

I don't disagree, that's unequivocally true.

As a programmer myself however I know that "I'll get back to it later and fix it" is usually a lie...

Haven't founded a business yet and I think I'll do that eventually but it also seems that "do your market research first and foremost" is an universal rule.

EDIT: As an European I should add that most of us never start a business unless they already have several customers willing to pay lined up in an orderly queue. I feel that too many Americans (probably not only them) start a business based on pure enthusiasm and hand-waving that motivated them during a few business events where people vaguely expressed an interest in their idea.

[minor3rd]

I feel like you're essentially saying the same thing I did, just worded differently?

[ta457447475]

Sometimes you just don't get a choice to do it the right way, or the most elegant way.

You've got a project manager breathing down your neck, pressure to deliver functionality, you've explained the technical debt issues etc - and you're still told to do it the wrong way.

Then years later, the only thing on the code is your name and some very dodgy looking decisions. That project manager is still probably kicking around blaming people and earning a fortune hehe.

[pdimitar]

> You've got a project manager breathing down your neck, pressure to deliver functionality, you've explained the technical debt issues etc - and you're still told to do it the wrong way.

Do the right thing and quite that toxic work place. You will help natural selection: extreme corner-cutters should go out of business. I knew a guy (programmer) who destroyed a company by simply leaving.

You can only tell a shoe craftsman to create shoes out of cow dung and grass for so long.