[A_Person]

That's really not so. Cave diving has well established protocols for safe navigation, gas reserves, entanglement management, and so on. There's no way they'd have gone significantly outside those protocols. Those brits are highly experienced expedition cave divers, and undoubtedly pushed it further than a weekend warrior like me would do. But they really wouldn't have been dicing with death, as it were.

[jacquesm]

How do you feel about this comment now that one of the rescue divers has died?

Not one of the Brits as far as I can tell but an ex navy seal.

[A_Person]

Given that I'm sitting at home watching TV - and they're all busting their asses off in the cave - it's hard to discuss this without being disrespectful to them - which I certainly don't want to be. But anyway...

Looking at some of the photos, lots of the gear they are wearing is ordinary recreational gear - nothing like what an experienced cave diver would use. So it raises the question, in my mind, as to whether their navy seals actually do have any formal training in advanced cave diving. Combat diving is unlikely to be the same thing.

So the very unfortunate incident might actually support my previous comment, not contradict it. Cave diving is very dangerous to the untrained or improperly equipped. But proper training and equipment can mitigate those dangers. The two brits would not have been wearing anything like the kind of gear in the photos :-(

Again, kudos to the people on the spot, doing their best.

[jacquesm]

You realize you are making a 'no real cave diver' argument now?

For their sake I hope nothing happens to those British guys, but if it does you'd better find a quiet spot somewhere.

For some background: the diver that died ran out of oxygen after leaving the maximum of oxygen in the cave (where it is dropping).

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-44734385

[A_Person]

Try to follow along.

You: the two Brits were risking their lives.

Me: Not really, they'd have been following standard cave diving safety protocols.

You (effectively): Well, a Navy Seal just died, so that proves that it's dangerous.

Me: There's evidence that the Navy Seals weren't trained cave divers - they certainly didn't seem to be equipped as such - so all it proves is that cave diving is dangerous to those without specific training and/or proper equipment - navy seals or otherwise.

You: you'll change your tune if one of the brits dies!

W-T-F?

Here's a short list of how the diving equipment in some of the photos is absolutely noncompliant with proper cave diving equipment. This implies to me that they are not trained cave divers, and consequently, the risks they unknowingly took were enormously greater than the risks the two brits took:

(1) Single tanks! Fine in recreational diving, because if something goes wrong with your air supply (tank valve fails, hose bursts, regulator falls apart, whatever), you can go to your buddy for air, or at worst, bolt to the surface. No good in cave diving, where there isn't any air at the surface, and your buddy might be 20 meters away at the other end of a tight restriction. So all cave divers use twin tanks. We also follow gas management rules designed to let us survive the following two scenarios: (a) At the point of maximum penetration, you get separated from your buddy, and simultaneously, one of your two tanks completely fails; and (b) at the point of maximum penetration, you're still with your buddy, but both of your (or his) two tanks fail. Diving on a single tank is fundamentally noncompliant with all those standard safety protocols.

(2) Hoses curving out around their heads. These are common in recreational diving, but a serious entanglement hazard in cave diving. Cave divers route all their hoses tight-in, to reduce entanglement risks. This is especially important in low or no visibility diving. No properly trained cave diver would leave the house with hose routing like that in some of those photos. Even if an experienced cave diver was forced to use that gear by circumstance or in a dire emergency, she'd fix that up before she got in the water.

(3) K-valves! The top of each tank has a valve, onto which you attach the first stage pressure reduction regulator. Those valves come in two styles: K-valves, and DIN valves. Each style has a rubber O-ring to seal the regulator onto the valve. With K-valves, the O-ring can squeeze out, causing the attachment to fail. That's rare, but can happen. Bad luck if you're a kilometre into the cave - on a single tank - with your buddy at the other end of the restriction!! With DIN valves, the O-ring is trapped entirely within the valve body, so it can't pop out. For that reason, few if any properly trained cave divers would use K-valves.

(4) Funky hand held torches! They probably throw a nice wide beam, which is good for recreational dives. But cave divers need narrow beams (to cut through the murk, and facilitate signalling); with multi-hour durations, and hands-free attachments so you can use that hand for other tasks.

In summary, someone who is an experienced brain surgeon, gets into a Formula One car, prangs it, and kills himself. To me, that doesn't say much about the safety of properly trained and qualified Formula One drivers.

But you say that the death of a person, who may have had zero formal training in cave diving, says something about the safety risks the two brits took? Perhaos two of the most experienced expedition cave divers in the world?

I think you do not understand the issues. I don't intend to reply again.

[jacquesm]

No, I think you let your knowledge of cave diving cloud your vision: this is dangerous, and to enter that situation willingly is brave.

You can make it sound like it isn't by hauling in everything and the kitchen sink in terms of technology but that does not change the ground rules.

In the meantime, with all your knowledge and background you're armchair quarterbacking a rescue operation that is most likely doing what can be done given the tools at hand.

So the people that are doing this are doing it because they feel they have to, because they feel the lives of those kids matter to them even if they have only potential downside for themselves.

That we are even having this discussion is beyond bizarre.

[A_Person]

You said the brits were risking their lives. I said they weren't, at least to the extent that you believed - and explained why in exhaustive detail. But you disagree, based on qualifications and experience that could roughly be described as: zero. I'll speak to doctors Dunning & Kruger and see if they can fit you in next week for a chat.