[quizme2000]

I work full time for an IT company that supports Apple products and we are in the same position. Its hard for us to recommend upgrades unless there is an hardware failure that's beyond the replacement cost. I still rock a 2012 MBP that has RAM, HDD, ODD, and ports. It can be service by removing 8 screws. IMHO it is the peak Apple Laptop. After 2012 they started being anti-consumer, anti-repair in laptop design.

[gargravarr]

I'm the sysadmin in my company, and as noted in previous posts we have a lot of these USB-C MBPs. They're a logistical pain trying to keep up with adapters and I find the keyboards AND trackpads to be unusable - I was trying to click-and-drag on a colleague's computer earlier and just couldn't manage it, it kept registering a double-click. Apple also have incredible spite for soldering the RAM and SSDs to the logic boards to prevent anyone upgrading. I recently had the displeasure of trying to rescue a file off a non-booting MBP. It took me a multitude of hours and Target Disk Mode didn't even work. If one of these machines outright failed, I would have to write off the hardware and all the data on it.

I just sold a 2011 13" MBP I got from an office clearance on eBay. Despite being 7 years old, I got the equivalent of a couple of Chromebooks for it, with the new owner extremely eager to get their hands on it. I upped the disk to an SSD before I sold it and installed High Sierra, and it ran great.

From the same clearance, I got myself a 2014 Retina. Can't deny, the screen is gorgeous, the trackpad is great and the keyboard is very usable. It was already maxxed out with RAM, but despite having an upgradeable SSD, my upgrade options are limited because Apple use a proprietary form factor. I absolutely loved my old Discrete MBP, which I used daily for 5 years and took around the world with me, but I hold the Retina at arm's length. My other laptop is a custom-built gaming machine where I can push the RAM up to 64GB if I want to, as well as fitting SATA and NVMe SSDs. The lack of upgradeability is a real limit to the range.

We also have XPS 13's, which despite copying Apple on soldering in the RAM, have standard m.2 SSDs. I got an enclosure to drop the disks into if necessary.

As best I can tell with everything in Apple's current lineup, if it breaks or is outclassed, even within months of its release, you just throw it away and buy a new one.

I can't help but remember Tim Cook commenting how he noticed Windows users switching to Mac were coming from hardware that was 5 or more years old. His comment was how 'sad' this was. This was startling because it shows how long non-Apple hardware lasts, and how fundamentally Apple does not understand this. They would much rather you renewed your computer as often as you renewed your iPhone.

[DoofusOfDeath]

> I was trying to click-and-drag on a colleague's computer earlier and just couldn't manage it, it kept registering a double-click.

Not sure if this is your issue, but (at least) the new MBP has two levels of "clicking" on the touch pad. If you just press with a little force, so that no tangible "click" occurs, you get one behavior. If you push hard enough to feel a "click", you get different behavior.

Mentioning this because it drove me a little nuts until I figured it out.

[seba_dos1]

My gf uses mid-2012 MBP 13, which we upgraded with SSD and 16GB RAM. If it ever fails, there're simply no Macs for her on the market that it could be replaced with and I don't see her going back to Windows - which means I'll probably have to setup a GNU/Linux working environment for her and to make sure Wine runs her Photoshop version well.

Alternatively we may try to get another mid-2012 MBP, as having a Mac around is good when I have to build and test macOS and iOS ports of my software. I can't see us buying any newer MBP, it doesn't make any sense economically.

[doktrin]

> If it ever fails, there're simply no Macs for her on the market that it could be replaced with and I don't see her going back to Windows - which means I'll probably have to setup a GNU/Linux working environment for her and to make sure Wine runs her Photoshop version well.

Out of curiosity, does your gf actually need a unix based OS? If she uses Photoshop daily and otherwise doesn't do any work that benefits from Linux - why not just use Windows?

[seba_dos1]

She strongly prefers macOS to Windows, so I just assume it will be easier to configure some GNU/Linux DE to feel somewhat familiar. Plus both of us haven't used Windows for many years now, while she knows macOS, and I know Unix in general quite well.

Also, if I can avoid having Windows running on our home network that's a bonus point for me ;)

[alistairSH]

Why can't she just use a newer MBP 13? Is it because you don't like the anti-consumer build, or does she have an objection of her own?

Basically, for a consumer (non-business, non-gamer) who just needs a laptop that works, running software they are familiar with, I don't see a reason to avoid new Macs.

I understand that the anti-consumer builds are annoying. But, for a non-tech-geek who will likely never upgrade internals, what does it matter?

[seba_dos1]

She had an objection on her own, earlier I wasn't even aware that Macs were so bad since 2012 - I thought it was just a few most recent models. She already upgraded some of the internals earlier (well, had a service point to do it for her). I think she has even chosen this model especially due to non-unibody construction, as already some newer ones were available when she bought it (and it's not her first Mac) - we haven't knew each other back then.

I don't see how upgradability is a geek-only matter. Sure, most people don't do it themselves - they go to the service point and have the replacement done for them. They absolutely do upgrade though - sometimes you get to the point where everything is sluggish, and money don't grow on trees. Plus of course there's a whole environmental impact to consider.

It's actually geeks that have to have the latest and greatest, from what I can see. Most people I know don't replace their phones until it's broken, while Apple geeks always sell their iPhones whenever a new one comes out.

[alistairSH]

I used to upgrade my laptops and desktops, but these days, the hardware is mostly fast enough that for home use, I haven't seen the need. I just buy them maxed out, use for 5-10 years, and replace. By that time, monitors have gotten better, ports have changed, or there's some other compelling reason to upgrade.

[mrzool]

There's a multitude of things that are wrong with new MBs, not just the lack of upgradability.

[alistairSH]

No doubt, but I find that true of many laptops. Dell had the webcam mounted on the bottom of the monitor, so friends/family got to stare up my nose. Others aren't reliable. Some are made with flimsy feeling plastics. Plus, there's the whole Windows 10 problem (I dislike it, I hate that it spams me with ads, don't trust Microsoft - not that I implicitly trust Apple, I just distrust them less than MS).

[tambourine_man]

>and to make sure Wine runs her Photoshop version well.

Unfortunately, there’s no such thing

[tehaugmenter]

Actually, if you use playonlinux to broker your wine installations, it does a pretty good job making sure any dependancies are installed. They fully support CS4 and CS6 - https://www.playonlinux.com/en/supported_apps-6-0.html

[tambourine_man]

CS6 is from 2012.

And by fully support do the mean clone stamp overlays, smooth zoom, basically anything that requires graphic acceleration?

[seba_dos1]

AFAIK Photoshop uses OpenGL, so graphics acceleration is probably one of the easiest things to get working on Wine.

[scarface74]

If that’s all I needed was the occasional way to build and test iOS apps, as much as I would would hate it, I might buy a Mac Mini. On the other hand, I might get a low end iMac.

[apricot]

I genuinely had no idea Apple was still selling the Mac Mini.

[whywhywhywhy]

the last update to it (3 years ago) was borderline insulting, the model before had a removable base where you could upgrade the ram yourself. The last update they did placed a metal sheet in this area. https://i.imgur.com/TXocZ4d.jpg

[happycube]

Unfortunately it was nerfed in late 2014 by going to 15W CPU's. No more real quad-core i7's...

[microcolonel]

> Unfortunately it was nerfed in late 2014 by going to 15W CPU's. No more real quad-core i7's...

Hilarious since it is a giant chunk of aluminium, more than eight times the size of a typical 35W NUC-type machine, and has a fan.

[scarface74]

While I agree with you, it would probably be good enough for light IOS work.

[wilsonnb2]

I'm not convinced that consumers care if their laptop has easily replaceable parts. Consumers definitely like thin laptops though, which is at odds with repairability in most cases.

[cletus]

There is a large amount of truth to this. However, I think Apple has taken it too far in two ways.

1. Things like the new MBP keyboard are objectively worse than the old keyboard in terms of user experience. This might have saved half a millimeter in height of a closed laptop. What's more, repair costs are _insane_. Even after a year of using this I still prefer the old keyboard.

2. They've added features that serve little more purpose than raising the ASP of MBPs. Top of that list is the touch bar. I consider the 2011-14 Macbook Air to be the pinnacle of Macbook hardware. Decent ports, good form factor, decent CPU (by comparison the 12" Macbook IMHO makes too much sacrifices to the altar of thinness) and, best of all, a great price. The fact that you could buy such a great machine for <$1500 was amazing to the point that I didn't really care what happened to it. I'd just buy another one if it died or I lost it. That made me more comfortable buying it and using it wherever.

The problem is that consumers won't see the downside of this until they've been around long enough to start failing outside of warranty and then outside of AppleCare. At that point paying $500+ (or whatever it is; I don't know the specific number) just to repair a keyboard is going to be pretty hard to swallow.

[markkanof]

Do consumers really care about thin laptops or is it just that Apple (and other manufacturers) can't come up with any other more interesting ideas that they could use for marketing purposes. Light weight laptops I can see being interesting for when you actually have to move it around, or significantly longer battery life could be an attractive addition to laptops. It really seems like pushing so hard on the idea of how sexy thin laptops are just demonstrates that they are completely out of ideas. There must be something more meaningful that they could change on a laptop and push just as hard on that to convince people it is worth lusting over.

[logfromblammo]

I don't care about thin in laptops. I barely even care about weight. Once you're past the portability threshold where it is light enough and self-contained enough to be hand carried from place to place, and return to workstation functionality by plugging in no more than 3 cords, I'm done with size and weight. I simply don't spend that much time carrying a laptop around.

I really like the mil-spec ruggedized laptops. I look down a row of those, and it really strikes me how they're all the same size, they're covered in ports (behind little gasket-protected doors), and they are so unapologetic about size and weight that they have sturdy carry handles attached.

So what I really want most is a standardized form factor. Then my concern is for the closely related concepts of power, cooling, and heat dissipation. My Third choice would be 1920x1080 display resolution or better. After that, battery life. If you're designing your laptop to be too thin and light to accommodate a standard TRS audio mini-jack, you're not designing for me.

The other thing lappie makers are doing is touch screens, which are just awkward on a laptop, and usually unusable in a docking station anyway. Never mind about turning the function key row into a touchscreen.

[reaperducer]

I don't care about thin in laptops. I barely even care about weight. Once you're past the portability threshold where it is light enough and self-contained enough to be hand carried from place to place

I care about weight. A lot. Because I travel.

People on HN like to say a particular laptop is "light enough." Sure, if that's all your carrying. But if you have a bag or briefcase full of other things like documents, every ounce counts.

[logfromblammo]

I want to know who is making you carry paper on an airplane.

Even classified documents can be shipped. There's really no reason I can imagine for anyone to be hand-carrying paper documents in the passenger compartment of an airplane in 2018, outside of a diplomatic pouch. And in that case, the laptop probably has to be disposable anyway.

[romwell]

>I want to know who is making you carry paper on an airplane.

Um, some of us still use (gasp) paper notebooks and pens. Imagine that! (I'll stop using them when you give me something with comparable power consumption and handwriting latency).

Besides that, in my bag you'll find a Fuji X100 camera, a Polaroid Snap, a (yes, paper) passport, a wallet, a couple of chargers, a cell phone, some pens, allergy pills, etc.

All of that has weight.

As for shipping - one point of bringing something on a plane is that you can use it on the plane.

Anyway, the point is - weight matters. There are things other than the laptop that a lot of people carry when traveling - be it personal or business travel.

[Kluny]

They might not think about it when they buy their first laptop, but trust me, everyone cares about a $200 replacement part vs a $3000 replacement laptop after it's happened to them once. I've had the most tech-illiterate people I know explain this to me as the reason why they stick with their old Mac or buy a Windows PC. Their technical details might be off, but they definitely care.

[xvf22]

When a motherboard failure wipes out their soldered on SSD I'm sure they'll care.

[wilsonnb2]

Sure, if that was a common occurrence I'm sure people would care, but it's not so they don't.

[xvf22]

Motherboards fail more often than you'd imagine, liquid damage being a common cause. The chips may be fine but since they're part of the failed motherboard Apple won't do a thing to recover the data. Unlike removable storage where you can move it to a working machine.

[ropeadopepope]

Do you have a source on that? The mac users I know are especially worried about data loss because of the high rate of other failures on their new MBPs. One of my co-workers temporarily lost some of his work because he hadn't pushed his changes to git and his computer had to go back to apple for repair because it wouldn't boot. He got the computer back the next day, so all was well, but it makes you wonder.

[bunderbunder]

SSDs failing, maybe not, but I gather that mechanical failures on the new MBP keyboard are also very expensive to fix.

[naravara]

On the other hand, when a spilled cup of coffee fails to fry the electronics because the whole thing is sealed up, they'll learn to value the closed chassis.

Which of these events do you think is more likely for the typical user?

This is actually why the fragile keyboard on the latest MacBook Pros is such a problem. It compromises durability in a part of the laptop that is actually very important.

[gargravarr]

I would agree with you if the chassis was sealed in the USB-C ones, which it isn't. A cup of coffee spill is still as fatal to a MBP as it's ever been. My 2011 ThinkPad X220 has drain holes in the keyboard. These laptops have moisture detectors to void your warranty.

Give me maintainable laptops, not throwaway ones, for the love of...

[slantyyz]

Yeah, but once your computer is out of warranty, you'll definitely appreciate the ability to replace parts.

I spilled soda pop on my 2008 Macbook's keyboard and fried it. Fortunately, the computer still worked (I ended up carrying a USB keyboard in my bag as I was consulting on site, which was awkward, but at least I could do that without being stuck without a computer for a few days). I ordered a second hand replacement from OWC, and after watching a video, I had the keyboard replaced in less than an hour.

[naravara]

>Yeah, but once your computer is out of warranty, you'll definitely appreciate the ability to replace parts.

On a laptop I don't really think so. An extended warranty runs about 3 years and most Macs I've had have lasted about 5. At that point I would just rather get a new computer anyway than bother sprucing up an old one.

I did have one computer fry in about 3 years because of a logic board issue, which pissed me off royally. But in the grand scheme of things, the money I would have saved by having a user replaceable GPU vs. just upgrading the thing 2 years before I was ready to doesn't amount to very much. If I was very money constrained it would definitely be more of an issue, but that's never really been Apple's target market.

[ben_w]

> An extended warranty runs about 3 years and most Macs I've had have lasted about 5. At that point I would just rather get a new computer anyway than bother sprucing up an old one.

Isn’t the point here that it’s no longer so good to replace a 5-year-old Mac?

My MacBook Air is about 5 years old now, and yes, the USB ports and some keys on the keyboard are becoming unreliable, and the power cable has frayed despite a protector, but none of the current models are tempting enough to make me want to upgrade the way I used to.

[slantyyz]

>> On a laptop I don't really think so. An extended warranty runs about 3 years and most Macs I've had have lasted about 5. At that point I would just rather get a new computer anyway than bother sprucing up an old one.

That depends on whether you got a laptop with a real processor or a low power processor. A 2011 15" MBP with a quad core i7 holds up pretty well even today in terms of CPU performance.

[robin_reala]

Data you haven’t backed up is data you don’t want. Regardless of whether the SSD is replaceable or soldered on, if data loss is your problem you should have been backing up.

[dijit]

That's not how users think and you know it.

There's a comic and I can't find it right now where a person is lamenting the fact that they have no backups while their computer is not booting.

Then the computer works and they exclaim that "thank god I don't need to do any of that", it's funny because it's quite relatable to a lot of people.

[kogir]

This happened to me and I was rather disappointed. I had backups but Apple didn’t even offer to try and recover data at any cost, or allow me to keep the parts with my data still on them.

[rootusrootus]

I'd like Apple to give it a shot and find out. I was happy enough lugging around my 2011 MBP even though it was much thicker than my current one (a 2013) which is itself much thicker than the newer ones.

Make a thin MacBook, sure. Then make a proper MacBook pro and make it about the hardware and not beauty. I believe there is actually a market for it.

[gargravarr]

At this stage, I'm convinced Apple have forgotten how to make Pro computers.

[wilsonnb2]

You can buy an iMac Pro with an 18 core Xeon, 128GB ECC RAM, 4TB SSD, and Vega 64 graphics. If that's not a pro computer, then I'm not sure what is.

[ropeadopepope]

What kind of pro computer doesn't come with top notch support?

"Apple REFUSED to fix our iMac pro" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-NU7yOSElE

"The Apple Store Genius Bar broke my $5000 iMac pro" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MG_NRcy5mxU

[wilsonnb2]

It's unwise to extrapolate that the iMac Pro doesn't come with top notch support from a single instance of bad support.

I side with Apple in the Linux Tech Tips issue, though. They're under no obligation to fix it after he broke it by intentionally violating the terms and conditions.

[blacksmith_tb]

Nice specs, but you can't upgrade the SSDs, RAM is possible but breaks warranty, can't upgrade the soldered GPU, and it's unclear if the CPU is actually upgrade-able. So I would call it disappointing, as a 'Professional' product.

[rbanffy]

It's a professional tool. When the GPU is too slow or I need more than than 18 cores or 128 GB of RAM, I'll just buy a new one. I'm pretty sure that won't happen in less than 5 years.

As for storage, I'd be crazy not to keep all important files on a backed-up RAID array. It's a professional tool, after all.

(and I keep my music on an off-site-backed-up RAID array)

[golergka]

Consumers differ. Pro users care, and they have traditionally been the primary macpro audience.

[geezerjay]

> I'm not convinced that consumers care if their laptop has easily replaceable parts.

That's like saying that you're not sure consumers dislike the idea of falling victims to price gauging schemes or even being forced to scrap perfectly good hardware due to a minor issue with an otherwise perfectly modular component or the inability to upgrade low-performing hardware.

[wilsonnb2]

"like" and "dislike" aren't the same as caring. In this case, caring means they feel strongly enough about it to purchase or not purchase a specific laptop. I'm sure plenty of consumers dislike their laptops lack of repairability - I also think that they don't care.

[oldcynic]

Careful here.

Anecdotally I'm aware of more than a few folks who replaced their bottom end PC/Windows laptop with a brand new machine because it was supplied with far too little memory, but hit a £399 or £499 price point, and they installed one too many bits of crap. So they spend another £499 on another too lightly specced laptop when £40 doubling memory would have fixed all their issues. PC makers have always been happy to sell machines with barely enough RAM to reach the desktop let alone run or install anything.

A lot of consumers don't know what they're buying, how much memory Windows needs, how to upgrade even when possible, or how to uninstall things they no longer need (eg iTunes after they switched to Android, Massive HP drivers remaining when now running an Epson printer and vice versa). Helpful in-store sales people don't help with this.

Most of us on HN however would prefer to buy the least standard memory/SSD possible and immediately bump it at Crucial or some such for a quarter of Dell, Lenovo or Apple's price.

[danbolt]

I use a mid-2012 at home too. The RAM/HDD slots have been updated multiple times. I love how long the device has lasted me.

[quizme2000]

I love refurbishing these models. You can upgrade the RAM to 16 GB ($110), Install an SSD ($150), and replace the battery ($65) in 15 mins. Your biggest hurdle is having a $1 tri-wing bit for the battery and it will run MacOS as well as any current model.

[slantyyz]

The great thing about those models. You didn't have to max out right away and pay the exorbitant prices.

When I bought my 2011MBP, I slowly upgraded the parts as prices came down.

My advice to people buying Mac laptops today is to max everything out if you can afford to, because you're generally going to be stuck with the RAM and storage for as long as you keep the computer. (Yes, I know you can upgrade the SSDs, but it's a little more complicated than running to your local computer store to buy commodity parts).

[geoelectric]

That's what I did with my 2012 13" MBA--my wife still uses it, and it actually still runs current software pretty well. If it weren't for the lack of Retina display I'd probably still be on it.

Right now, I'm holding onto my 2015 13" MBP with both hands (also maxed it on the same principle) until Apple releases a halfway decent MBP again. I use a 2016 15" for work, and still can't type well on the damned thing after having it for a year and a half.

[tropdrop]

Thanks to those removable screws, I upgraded my mid-2012 with an SSD and it boots blindingly fast. Only when I do particularly complicated graphics work do I notice any lag - other than that, this laptop is a champion and I see no laptop on the market I would rather use

[jedberg]

I'm typing this comment on a Late 2011 MBP right now, with upgraded ram and an SSD. Works great! I agree with you though, 2012 was peak MacBook.

[murukesh_s]

The retina display though. it's difficult to go back once you get used to it..

[chris_wot]

I work for a media company and we have 5-6 year old MacBook Air and MBPs that are constantly being serviced.

Fun fact: the MBA apple symbol light shows a noticeable light ring on the display after this amount of time.

I am amazed that sales staff still want MacBooks, but I put it down to the brushed metal finish.

[endemic]

I love all the responses about how folks are able to prolong the lifespan of their older Mac hardware (I'm running a 2010 MBP myself). I imagine that's part of the problem -- Apple sells more hardware if you can't upgrade.

[rbritton]

Not necessarily. I used to get the newest model every other year. Following the discontinuation of the 17" laptop, I held onto that until it died, only then buying the newest MBA. On the desktop side, my Mac Pro is eight years old now, and it has long been upgraded as far as it can go. Sometimes I miss things like AirDrop from my phone, but I don't miss them enough to spend money on what is effectively a downgrade in usability. I'd love to upgrade and have no issues spending the money in theory, but I can't justify the expense for the current hardware.

[LeftTurnSignal]

I bought 6 separate Apple machines between 2005 to 2012. Either because the upgrade was worth it, I had a nice bonus, or some other non-important reason.

The last piece of Apple hardware I bought was a new mid-2012 Macbook Pro. After seeing where Apple was going in 2013 / 2014, I have had zero desire to replace it. I upgraded everything in it, and replaced the optical drive with another SSD. I'll be sad the day that thing finally dies. I'm not sure if I'll go with another Apple machine or XPS with linux. I really don't want it to die lol.

[modzu]

truth. someone needs to step up if not apple. plenty of us still build things with actual computers even if we arent an easy cash cow

[ataturk]

The 2015 MB Pro was damn decent. I bought my daughter a refurb 2012 Pro 13" with 16GB of RAM and yes, it is damn decent.

Not sure what the hell is wrong at Apple. My work machine is the 2017 MB Pro and its awful, I hate it.