[reqres]

This is welcome move by the new Home Secretary, but the thing that terrifies me the most is the end of free movement when we leave the EU. As the director of a software development business, I have to contend with a very tight market for good developers.

After brexit takes place, any EU citizen I wish to employ will have to go through the Tier 2 visa route. There are 3 major issues with this. 1. It's capped at 20k people per year. 2. We do not have the deep pockets and the legal/HR team to navigate the home office to procure such a visa 3. It does not provide sufficient guarantees for bringing and settling down a family

On top of that, we also have to contend with many structural issues that makes the UK (London in particular) a less appealing place to attract talent:

- High cost and low quality of living in London

- Poor transport infrastructure (it's cheaper to eurostar London-Amsterdam than train London-Manchester)

- UK politicians and media do not stand up for the benefits of immigration and is willing to allow blanket demonisation of immigrants to go unanswered

- All the negative externalities associated with an overcrowded city (overcrowded public transport, knife crime, NOX pollution in excess of legally permissible levels)

[easytiger]

> After brexit takes place, any EU citizen I wish to employ will have to go through the Tier 2 visa route.

How do you know that?

[jackweirdy]

Politically, the Prime Minister is standing firmly behind the "End Freedom of Movement" crowd. There's been no discussion of any alternative immigration process besides the existing visa process.

It's obviously not a certainty that that will be the case, but so far most signs point to it.

[easytiger]

> It's obviously not a certainty that that will be the case, but so far most signs point to it.

Not my understanding. Care to place a wager?

[jackweirdy]

I’m not betting on anything now we’ve entered the math.random timeline.

Out of interest what are you expecting to see?

[pjc50]

Nobody knows for sure yet, and we might still get the EEA with free movement; but anti-immigration hostility was a big driver for the Brexit vote so some sections of the Tory party may not agree to this.

[yardie]

Because one of the primary goals for the Brexit campaign was restricting freedom of movement from the EU.

[beojan]

> Poor transport infrastructure (it's cheaper to eurostar London-Amsterdam than train London-Manchester)

I don't see how that's a problem? Perhaps if you were evaluating Manchester as a location, but not when evaluating London.

Realistically, no one's going to commute from Manchester to London. If you have to meet people in Manchester, that's going to be an issue wherever you set up.

[stevesimmons]

UK rail pricing is insane, 3 to 7 times more than in the Netherlands, to make a comparison I know well. Totally unaffordable for spur-of-the-moment trips unless a company is paying. Here are two comparable length journeys.

- London to Manchester (2h26): travel tomorrow: GBP148; travel in August: GBP64

- Amsterdam to Maastricht (2h25): travel tomorrow: EUR25 = GBP22; travel in August: EUR25

Dutch rail prices are simple and predictable. Essentially a fixed rate per km, with an optional 40% off for offpeak travel after 9:30am. The UK apparently has 55 million different fare combinations. Totally bewildering. Not to mention the condition of the trains and the reliability of the service are much worse.

UK rail prices are so bad it is almost always cheaper to fly than go by train. Consequently, my partner and I take 10 European holidays by air for every UK holiday by train. That's a massive loss for the UK tourist industry.

[beojan]

That's what happens when you privatize the rail system.

Though as I understand it, it's still subsidized just not to the same extent as in the Netherlands. Rail is just a very expensive mode of transport to operate.

[tolien]

Speaking of the Netherlands, it's worth pointing out that Abellio, a wholly-owned subsidiary of the Dutch national rail operator, runs the Scottish, West Midlands, Merseyside and Greater/East Anglia rail franchises.

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abellio_(transport_company)#Ra...

[switch007]

> The UK apparently has 55 million different fare combinations.

Small correction: there are 65.6 million, one for every person. They are reviewed monthly based on births and deaths and adjusted accordingly.

[reqres]

That's fair, the London-Manchester issue is specific to our particular client base.

However the absurd cost of low quality rail travel (often standing room only, less frequent trains following new time table, poor customer service) is real. Right now I'm paying £3.5k a year for an annual rail pass to take me into work (for instance). The alternative would be to move further into London and pay double in rent for the same accommodation / standard of living

[switch007]

> I have to contend with a very tight market for good developers.

What do you mean by tight market, and what makes EU citizens an attractive hire?

When businesses discuss problems with finding good people, I find it somewhat incomplete if salaries aren't mentioned.

[walshemj]

Former Warsaw pact member states have well trained young people with degrees and horrific employment levels - so employers in the UK can get cheaper staff.

[CloudNetworking]

It's not that they can get cheaper staff, it's that they can get reliable and talented staff.

There's only so many talented British developers. Hiking salaries won't turn non-talented people into talented people.

[walshemj]

I think you mean there are "only so many talented British / English developers" who will work for what you want to pay.

Over time a shortage and higher wages will increase the supply - all those cute triplets with triple A levels that the papers like to picture jumping in the air on results day( a common uk trope) will go into engineering instead of the law, medicine or other higher paid and higher status jobs

[CloudNetworking]

Good point, there are other local talent pools that choose more attractive careers, but that is also a limited resource in a 60M country.

[blibble]

> Hiking salaries won't turn non-talented people into talented people.

the exact opposite is the basis of capitalism

[CloudNetworking]

If I negate everything in my sentence this is what I get:

> Lowering salaries will turn talented people into non-talented people.

Am I doing capitalism right? :o)

[snthd]

>All the negative externalities associated with an overcrowded city (overcrowded public transport, knife crime, NOX pollution in excess of legally permissible levels)

Why attribute that to an overcrowded city rather than UK specific politics?

[briandear]

You are in software development. So learn how to manage remote teams and all of those issues become irrelevant. You will have some new issues for sure, but higher quality remote talent is better than mediocre on site talent.

[walshemj]

But finding high quality remote talent is had as if they where any good they would have left in most cases.

I suspect you want to have your cake and eat it.