[djrogers]

I honestly don’t get why anyone goes in to debt to buy a car in this day and age. You can buy a car (or truck) for $3000 that will last several years without requiring any huge mechanic bills or exotic maintenance - heck, I’ve done it. I would much rather take the bus/bike/walk and save up $500/mo for 6 months to be a free man than buy or lease a car for $500/mo and be a space to my creditors.

Besides, hoopties can be charming :-)

[twblalock]

You have an interesting concept of being a "free man". Debt is a tool, not a form of enslavement.

For example, many people who could pay cash for a car take a loan instead, because they know they will have more money at the end of the loan term if they invest their cash, or because taking the loan will cost them less money than cashing out some investments and paying capital gains taxes.

You can get car loans these days with less than 1% APR. At that rate, it almost never makes sense to pay cash, at any price -- the interest rate on the loan is less than the rate of inflation!

I've bought cars for $2k or less several times, and I kept each one for several years. If I hadn't known how to work on them myself, they would have ended up costing a lot more than what I paid initially. I bought my current car new -- it is a lot safer than the cars I used to drive, it gets excellent gas mileage, it has a great warranty, and it will last me a long time.

When I retire several decades from now, I certainly won't regret having purchased a new car back in the 2010s -- the price I paid will be a drop in the bucket compared to the amount I will have earned and saved by then. All I would get if I buy a $3k car is unnecessary suffering and inconvenience, and significantly higher risk of death in an accident, that wouldn't amount to much savings in hindsight.

[romwell]

>All I would get if I buy a $3k car is unnecessary suffering and inconvenience, and significantly higher risk of death in an accident, that wouldn't amount to much savings in hindsight.

Perhaps so, but at some point one does see diminishing returns on getting a newer vehicle.

$3K these days won't get a hassle-free car, but $6K perhaps would.

How does one get safety statistics? I thought that any car made, say, in 2010 wouldn't come with a significantly higher risk of death compared to the same model made today.

[graeme]

On a societal scale, those $3000 cars likely only exist because others are frivolous and buy new cars on debt.

Some strategies work for individuals but not universally.

[Bromskloss]

OK, then the question just becomes why people don't settle for older cars until that drives the prices into a new equilibrium where the choice isn't as obvious any longer.

[stale2002]

Well, if people start buying the cheaper cars, it seems like a win for society, as there will be less people getting into debt. Seems like a win win to me.

[lsc]

On a societal level, we externalize most of the costs associated with auto crashes. I suspect that if we better rolled the true cost of injuries into the cost of car ownership (say, by increasing the minimum liability insurance to the cost of several statistical lives) the cheapest cars to own would be small and fairly new.

[Ntrails]

> say, by increasing the minimum liability insurance to the cost of several statistical lives

I still remember arguing with some people on the internet about how irrelevant what insurance someone bought was if you got hit by them. After all, you'd have to get into quite the accident to exceed the liability limits on car insurance.

I was so sure I was right. Then they introduced me to the idea you can drive in the US with insurance that wouldn't even cover the costs of a new medium sized sedan.

[lsc]

>I was so sure I was right. Then they introduced me to the idea you can drive in the US with insurance that wouldn't even cover the costs of a new medium sized sedan.

Yup. I mean, obviously, many people would not be able to afford reasonable levels of insurance, so instead of subsidizing public transit, or even directly subsidizing auto insurance or something, instead we leave it so that the costs of accidents are borne by victims who are unlucky enough to be hit by people who are carrying minimum driving insurance.

This means that if you are a responsible driver, you not only carry substantial liability insurance, in case you hurt someone else, but you also carry substantial 'uninsured motorist' coverage, which covers you in case someone who has minimum insurance hurts you.

Because of this, the cost of insurance varies radically; from almost nothing to rather more than the cost of a new compact car. And it scales, usually, with income, which is fine, really, but I think the way we do it (by throwing people who can't afford that rather expensive 'uninsured motorist' coverage or people who are hit outside their cars under the bus) is pretty messed up.

[perl4ever]

On the contrary, uninsured motorist insurance in the US is very inexpensive. $76 per year for half a million dollars coverage is typical (current quote from Geico).

[walshemj]

And have much worse outcomes in crashes (which increase the cost to society) - that's the reason why for example the new Mini's Fiat 500's are larger and are much more survivable.

Would you rather crash in a smart car or a small SUV

[lsc]

Outcomes for you? or for the person you hit? If we could all agree to use smaller cars, we'd all be better off.

Even within the 'bigger is better' arms-race limits, (you are better off in a vehicle that is heavier than your victim) you are dramatically better off in a minivan than in a similarly sized truck or other body-on-frame vehicle.

[gizmo686]

The question is, how many $3,000 cars can we actually produce. At the moment, we do not actually produce any. Instead, we produce expensive cars, and a non-trivial amount of people then choice to sell their current car at a lower price then it cost to construct the car in the first place.

[walshemj]

These $3k cars are second or 3rd hand ones probably ex fleet ones.

[lsc]

>You can buy a car (or truck) for $3000 that will last several years without requiring any huge mechanic bills or exotic maintenance - heck, I’ve done it.

I've done it, too. The thing is, even if the car is perfect, a car 10-20 years behind in safety features is dramatically less safe than a new car. On top of that, a $3000 car is not going to be perfect. Your suspension will have a lot more slop, etc, etc...

I mean, I'm not saying that a $3000 car is necessarily unsafe, just that it's less safe than a new one, and if you carry adequate liability insurance, the tco might not be that much lower than a cheaper new or nearly new car.

Now, most people only carry a few tens of thousands of dollars in liability insurance, and don't really concern themselves with risk to other people above and beyond that, if nothing else, out of financial necessity, and in that case, yes, the $3000 car is the clear choice.

[mattnewton]

In some cases, it’s hard to buy the $3000 car you need to make it to your job with no savings. Debt solves the chicken and egg problem when it works well.

When it doesn’t work is people getting fancy BMW’s they convinced themselves they would be able to afford somehow, but I have no idea how often that happens vs just lubricating basic necessary economic activity.

[ceejayoz]

There are a lot of places in the US where taking the bus/bike/walk is impractical, and the idea that people already on the edge can just snap their fingers and start saving $500/month is pretty out of touch.

[TheSpiceIsLife]

I'm not on the edge, but I am awful at saving money. Whereas loans I'll typically pay back in under half the time.

[montecarl]

I will be in need of a car soon. I don't drive much but just need something that works and is safe. Do you have any tips on how you find your $3000 cars? Are you a car guy?

[CompelTechnic]

I am not GP, but I search for cars for sale by owner on Craigslist using the following search string:

versa|fit|yaris|aveo|rio5|sonic|focus|elantra|soul|cobalt|leaf|mazda3|matrix

This will find you a small fuel efficient hatchback or sedan. Get familiar with kelly blue book and reply to sellers that have a reasonable asking price, then haggle. The last car I bought was a 2008 Rio with 100k miles for exactly $3000.

[ncallaway]

My general approach is to look at craigslist (one example query: https://seattle.craigslist.org/search/cta?query=used+car&sor...) to get a sense of the market. Spend a little while (maybe a week) checking in on a search like that to get a sense of the market.

Once you feel like you've got a sense of what "normal" prices are for cars in your price range, get a consumer reports subscription†. Use CR to evaluate the make, model, and year of any car that you're considering for safety and reliability. Reliability is a pretty important indicator for cars in this price range, because you'll tend to be looking at things with higher milage.

Then, watch craigslist for vehicles that seem like a good deal. With the information you have, you should also be in a good position to call local used car dealerships and tell them what you're looking for. You should have enough information to tell when they're offering you a reasonable deal.

If you have the time and can afford to try and be a little picky. Obviously, if you need a car you need a car, but if you can afford to take your time it'll usually be worth it. Prefer cars that seem like they've been well-maintained over their life and prefer cars that come from people who have kept documentation of maintenance performed on the car.

Finally, no matter where you're considering buying from—dealer or individual—take the car to a mechanic for a pre-sale inspection. This is a common service most mechanics offer. Make sure you're the one selecting the mechanic and the one paying the mechanic. That ensures that you should get a fairly objective assessment of the car itself. This step isn't as important if you're familiar with cars, but if you're not a car guy (as I'm not), it's totally worth the price to find out if there are any immediate or upcoming service issues that will be necessary for the car.

†I _think_ you can get a monthly subscription and cancel after one-month, but you should double-check that. If you can get it for a single month, the $7.95 is totally worth it. If you have to get it for a full-year at a time, evaluate the cost/benefit based on your budget.

[leehuffman]

> My general approach is to look at craigslist (one example query: https://seattle.craigslist.org/search/cta?query=used+car&sor...) to get a sense of the market.

CL now allows you to search by 'Owner' listings and eliminate dealers completely. Do that. If you're looking for a $3000 car, you don't want to touch the dealer realm, it'll be filled with straight trash.

> Once you feel like you've got a sense of what "normal" prices are for cars in your price range, get a consumer reports subscription†.

Nah. If you're targeting a $3,000 vehicle you can very quickly figure out what fits your requirements & budget. Volvo 240s, anything late 80s - early 90s Toyota, early-mid 90s Ford Rangers, 1st & 2nd generation Geo Metros, etc. These are just the cars that I've personally owned and as a result dug into and researched. There are TONS of makes & models out there that are fantastic vehicles that will perform extremely well for years to come inside your $3,000 budget.

> Prefer cars that seem like they've been well-maintained over their life and prefer cars that come from people who have kept documentation of maintenance performed on the car.

Find older people who are getting rid of their "daily" driver for good. I've purchased at least 6 of these that looked like they traveled through time and rolled off the showroom floor that day. They're generally one owner (since they pulled them off the lot ~12 years ago and aren't going to own anything else), dealer maintained, gently driven, with minimal miles; and they just want it gone at a fair price.

Also, look at the photos. Is their coffee cup from that morning in the holder? Is the interior a mess? Looks like they needed new wipers 6+ months ago and definitely need to hose the thing down at a minimum? That's a bad owner. They don't care for their vehicle. That means they didn't do scheduled maintenance on it. If you list a car for sale without taking the hour to clear your shit out of it, hit it with a vacuum, and take it through an automatic car wash – they're not the seller you're looking for.

> Finally, no matter where you're considering buying from—dealer or individual—take the car to a mechanic for a pre-sale inspection. This is a common service most mechanics offer.

Also hit the community forums for the vehicle you're considering. They exist for every make & model out there, I assure you. They almost always have a "purchase checklist" type document published. Give that to the shop that's doing your inspection and make sure they hit those bullet points as well. Every make of vehicle will have its quirks that you want reviewed.

[Paperweight]

There's also http://www.carsurvey.org/

[barsonme]

It does depend where you live and how much effort you put into it.

- Location

Where I come from (without getting specific, south of Seattle) a 10-year-old Corolla might run you $2,400. Where some of my family lives in Idaho, that same car would be well south of $1,000. Just depends on the cost of living in your area.

- Effort

Purchasing from a dealership will likely be safer (with respect to reliability and safety), but generally more expensive than shopping around on Craigslist. That being said, Craigslist isn't all that bad if you're somewhat mechanically inclined. Now, that doesn't mean you need to be able to rebuild an engine, just that you know what to look for in a car. Here's a somewhat decent checklist[0].

Like others said, when in doubt get a Toyota or Honda.

[0]: http://www.chrisfixed.com/HowtoInspectaUsedCarChecklistChris... (PDF!)

[TheSpiceIsLife]

Just buy a Toyota Camry or Corolla, typically can't go wrong with those things so long as someone remembered to occasionally check the oil.

[Hydraulix989]

Just don't get the one with Unintended Acceleration.

[Broken_Hippo]

Because not only do a lot of people live where they must have a care for transportation (Midwest, for example) simply to get to work and buy food, but many of these folks don't have much money. If you make $20k/year (more than minimum wage), that $3000 car is 15% of your income income. It is a major expense.

All this isn't so bad if you've been lucky enough to live at a low wage and not run into any major issues, but this is pretty rare.