[dalbasal]

Any one on that list he gave, zionism -> pick any flavour of modern israeli politics. Celtic nationalsim -> pick any flavour of modern irish politics. Neo-Tories.. same.

Most people self labeling as any of these would unanimously (if not alway honestly) all self describe the belief as patriotic by exactly the definition that Orwell gave. The other isms on his list aren't about nations. I guess Trotskyists wouldn't necessarily call themselves patriots, but what does that prove?

[mistermann]

> Any one on that list he gave, zionism -> pick any flavour of modern israeli politics

Just so I'm not misunderstanding you....so, any thing (I'm looking for examples of specific beliefs or policy goals that are motivated by Nationalism but passed off as patriotism) any politician in Israel believes is Nationalist, but presented(?) as patriotic? What does this look like in action?

Or have I misunderstood?

[boomboomsubban]

Their quote was rather hyperbolic, but much of Israel's foreign affairs policy is aggressively nationalistic. I could give examples of their nationalism in action, but as an outsider I'd rather not assume I know what they consider patriotic. I'll pick an example from the USA instead.

The US phenomenon around "support our troops" is presented as a patriotic appreciation for true Americans making hard sacrifices. The best way to support our troops would be keeping them home, which would also be the best thing to do by Orwell's definition of patriotism. The slogan has been used as a way to demonize those opposed to US foreign policy, and as a form of propaganda to show young people how much their community will love them if they enlist, nationalist ambitions.

[mistermann]

Israel is well beyond Nationalist if you ask me. But I'm trying to get some detail on this seemingly well known phenomenon of Nationalist actions being presented as patriotic. Maybe I'm wrong but it's starting to seem like some of these assertions are opinions based on some sort of social signalling rather than facts.

[boomboomsubban]

Orwell's definition of patriotism is fairly specific, and he mentions how hard it is to understand what anyone means when they say "patriotism" or "nationalism." Because of that, most things called patriotism barely try to fit Orwell's definition, but I can try again...

The Bush rhetoric about the necessity of the war on terror was presented in a very patriotic light by Orwell's definition. They brought up a seemingly constant risk to all American homes, and the often repeated line about the "terrorists hate our freedom" seemed to threaten and belittle the cultural values core to American patriotism. An appeal to patriotic feelings to justify nationalist actions.

If that doesn't work for you, I don't know what will. I'd guess you're using different definitions of the terms, as even my most cynical views on Israel would be nationalist.

[mistermann]

> An appeal to patriotic feelings to justify nationalist actions.

Attacking foreign countries who are not a threat is Nationalism? Is there any even remotely authoritative source that would agree with this?

Maybe I haven't been clear, but this magical redefining of words is part of the issue I'm having. If I was to say Liberalism (just for example) was synonymous with <some repugnant crime>, people would give me a "HN timeout" within 5 minutes, but it seems like you can throw whatever you want under the Nationalism banter and it's all good. Does anyone have any integrity anymore, or is it fake news all the way down?

> I'd guess you're using different definitions of the terms

It seems I am, the ones found in the dictionary for decades. But this seems to conflict with some other definition that everyone else seems to know, but won't say out loud. It's a rather interesting phenomenon to observe from someone on the outside.

[boomboomsubban]

This discussion is in a topic about Orwell's "Notes on Nationalism." The first several paragraphs are spent defining what he is calling "nationalism." I had figured you had read it, or one of the various comments summing it up, or even questioned why I repeatedly mention "Orwell's definition of patriotism."