[scarygliders]

> So, wtf does Orwell mean when he says "nationalism". It's not like patriotism, but is like Trotskyism? I think he just means fanatics. Ideologists that care more about winning arguments and wars then morals & greater goods supposedly furthered by ideologies.

Orwell defined what he was meaning exactly, in the second paragraph...

> By ‘patriotism’ I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality.

The sentences I quoted above resonate with me today, here in Scotland, pertaining to the Scottish National Party and especially with their rather foaming-at-the-mouth Nationalism. To see their behaviour - despite the 2014 Independence referendum in which the people of Scotland voted against breaking away from the United Kingdom - is to behold exactly the kind of irrational and in my view outright dangerous form of nationalism Orwell is writing about.

I consider myself a Scottish patriot, not a nationalist. I also consider myself a British patriot, not a nationalist, and it is for those reasons that I voted against Scotland becoming independent, breaking away from the UK, and it is also the reason why in my opinion the quicker the SNP lose their minority government in the Scottish parliament - they are being propped up by a handful of Scottish Greens who themselves demonstrate a propensity towards Communistic ideals hiding behind a thin veneer of "green" - the better.

[dalbasal]

What I meant is that usually Orwell doesn't mince words. That paragraph is a little flowery and ambiguous for him. The key words are "or other unit" which he later uses to expand the definition of nationalism out to potentially any ideology regardless of what it (if anything) it has to say about nations.

The definition of "patriotism" was (I think) intended as a disarming "I don't mean you" to British moderates. It's interesting that this part still (as you say) resonates in British politics today. I don't think it's quite honest though.

I think patriotism as Orwell defines it here is a moderate nationalism. More sentimental than ideological, as moderate political positions often are. It's not really different to modern european "democratic socialism" or whatnot. It is very different to early 20th century socialism, which were very fanatical.

What I meant overall is that I think if he was writing about the french, he would have just said "fanatics" instead of light stepping around local political sensitivities.

[lukeschlather]

The distinction doesn't work very well as phrased here. It's too easy to convince oneself that I am a patriot, and they are nationalists. So it ultimately just becomes another tribal marker.

[boomboomsubban]

The two things are separate even if nationalists try to use patriotism to justify their beliefs.

[mistermann]

What would be an example of a nationalist belief that they would try to classify as only patriotism?

[dalbasal]

Any one on that list he gave, zionism -> pick any flavour of modern israeli politics. Celtic nationalsim -> pick any flavour of modern irish politics. Neo-Tories.. same.

Most people self labeling as any of these would unanimously (if not alway honestly) all self describe the belief as patriotic by exactly the definition that Orwell gave. The other isms on his list aren't about nations. I guess Trotskyists wouldn't necessarily call themselves patriots, but what does that prove?

[mistermann]

> Any one on that list he gave, zionism -> pick any flavour of modern israeli politics

Just so I'm not misunderstanding you....so, any thing (I'm looking for examples of specific beliefs or policy goals that are motivated by Nationalism but passed off as patriotism) any politician in Israel believes is Nationalist, but presented(?) as patriotic? What does this look like in action?

Or have I misunderstood?

[boomboomsubban]

Their quote was rather hyperbolic, but much of Israel's foreign affairs policy is aggressively nationalistic. I could give examples of their nationalism in action, but as an outsider I'd rather not assume I know what they consider patriotic. I'll pick an example from the USA instead.

The US phenomenon around "support our troops" is presented as a patriotic appreciation for true Americans making hard sacrifices. The best way to support our troops would be keeping them home, which would also be the best thing to do by Orwell's definition of patriotism. The slogan has been used as a way to demonize those opposed to US foreign policy, and as a form of propaganda to show young people how much their community will love them if they enlist, nationalist ambitions.

[dalbasal]

I don't think they are. To put it in orwellian-ish terms, it's pretty likely that the only people that will really insist on the distinction would self describe as patriots.

You will probably find a patriotism-nationalism-like relationship between moderate and extremist flavours of any "ism." Social-democrats & Marxist-purists, conservative-traditionalists & fundamentalist-theocrats; Democrats & Anarchists.... These all tend to come in at least 2 flavours: moderate or extra spicy.

[boomboomsubban]

>I don't think they are. To put it in orwellian-ish terms, it's pretty likely that the only people that will really insist on the distinction would self describe as patriots.

He laid out fairly specific definitions for both patriotism and nationalism. Under those definitions, they're clearly separate things. In short, he sees patriotism as a love of your home, while nationalism is the worship of the state/similar entity.