[iuyhgtfvgbhjn]

That explains the behavior of all the drivers as I cycle to work. They are all moral philosophers and believe that by killing me they provide donor organs to save 6 others.

Maybe I need a cycling top that says "I don't carry a donor card"

[rdouble]

This version of the "trolley" thought experiment is explored in the book I mentioned in a previous post. It turns out people will not choose to steer a trolley of people needing organ replacements into a healthy potential organ donor. Thus, most people really aren't utilitarians, even if they claim to be. Unfortunately, one of the chemical processes in the brain reverses this attitude when someone prone to road rage spies a cyclist.

A typical response is that these sorts of mental games are silly, but how people answer these questions actually forms the basis of legal systems throughout the world.

[iuyhgtfvgbhjn]

We used to use the "would you kill a jogger for his organs" question on smug medical student applicants - those who wanted to be doctors "to help people".

Another good question is ask them why they don't become civil engineers - good drains save a lot more people than doctors ever did.

[Tyr42]

I remember watching a documentary where they found that drivers are much more likely to cut off cyclists wearing helmets than those without helmets. They also measured things like average distance between car and bike when passing. If people see you not wearing a helmet they assume that you are unsafe and will stay further away from you.

[btilly]

A friend of mine got access to the traffic accident statistics for Connecticut for several years. He found that it was safer to use smack than to ride a bike. If I remember correctly he also found that in the event of a reported accident, a bicyclist had a 15% chance of a "life-altering event". (For instance you might live, but never walk normally again.)

After that he gave up biking and switched to tennis.

[iuyhgtfvgbhjn]

The research was conducted by a prof at my old school.

He also discovered that drivers gave a female cyclist much more space - although since he did the experiment himself in a blonde wig he did consider that perhaps they just give unconvincing transvestites more room !

[Tyr42]

Yes, that is the one I was talking about! Thank you. I'm glad somebody knows what I'm talking about.

[logicalmind]

No offense, I was a successful bmx racer for a number of years so I used to be a hardcore bicyclist, but I really have a problem with bicyclists riding on roads on which they have no ability to maintain the posted speed limit.

I experience this nearly every day on a road I drive to/from work. This is a four-lane highway with a posted speed limit of 45mph. It is a favorite of bicyclists for some reason so there are a lot of riders on the road, even during rush hour. There are a handful of stoplights on this road over about a 5 mile stretch.

I have yet to see an bicyclist able to maintain a speed of 45mph nor do I see them have the ability to accelerate away from a stoplight with the same ability as an automobile. This leads to many traffic issues and numerous dangerous situations. The issue is only barely related to the bicyclists. It is mostly related to their abilities relative to other motorists. A car/motorcycle that was driving on the same road with the same acceleration and speed capabilities would be a nearly equivalent danger.

While I would never endanger a cyclist, I have seen many drivers put in danger by the habits of cyclists. And in my personal opinion, there should be a law that states that a cyclist should only be able to ride on roads for which they can maintain the proper speed.

[jrockway]

I agree 100%. 45mph is way too fast; the speed limit should be a more reasonable 15mph, and then everyone is on equal footing. (There are a lot less serious injuries when cars collide at 15mph as opposed to 45mph. So even the car drivers are safer!)

If you want to get to work fast, take the train.

[statictype]

I think the speed limit should be 45. If you want to go to work safely, take a train. Just saying.

[philwelch]

If there was sensible infrastructure for commuting by bicycle, there wouldn't be a problem. As it stands you're just asking people to give up a healthier and cheaper means of transportation with fewer negative externalities for little more than the convenience of motorists[1]. That's bad public policy.

[1] I don't buy the safety argument one bit--cars put cyclists in danger far more than cyclists put cars in danger.

[jrockway]

I agree with your footnote. It's very easy for drivers to slow down and share the road, but they don't want to. They are Very Important and are late to their next appointment. (Of course, so am I, and I have to pedal there! They should be making way for me!)

I ride my bike to work (almost) every day and do about 100 miles of road riding a week in addition to that. Rarely do I have problems on the streets of Chicago, because I choose wide roads that are "off the beaten path" and there is plenty of room for cars to use the other 3 lanes (giving me one to myself). People interact safely because it doesn't inconvenience them.

The other day, though, I had an interesting encounter with the driver of (you guessed it) an SUV. I was waiting to go straight through an intersection where there is only one lane for left turns, going straight, and turning right. I'm stopped at the red light. The car comes up behind me, and the driver gets out of the car and asks if I can "get off the road" so she can "make a right on red". I told her the lane is not marked for that, and I tried to choose the safest position for myself while waiting for the light to change. This annoys her, so she drives over the curb, onto the sidewalk... and has to wait for pedestrians crossing the street. The light turns green and there are pedestrians crossing the other way, so there she waits... stuck on the sidewalk.

The reason I don't feel bad about making her wait is that if there was a car there waiting to turn left or go through, then she'd be stuck, too. But the mentality of drivers is "us vs. them"; a car is a normal, a red light is normal... but a bike in my way! That's some selfish bastard (her words) stealing 15 seconds of my life!

Now I know why most people drive to work -- they don't want to get yelled at (or be endangered by) other drivers. You have to have a thick skin if you want to cycle and survive. And thus the cycle continues; "those damn cyclists need to get off my God-given roads, because someone told me that the one time I wanted to ride my bike to the store."

[logicalmind]

Every aspect of the roads were built for multi-ton automobiles. From the lane widths, to the radii of the curves to the posted speeds. You don't drive a car on railroad tracks or bike paths. I honestly don't follow the logic. It's like me saying I can ride a horse to work on the roads.

If a bicyclist wants to be equivalent to an automobile on areas that are designated for travel by automobile, then that bicyclist should be able to safely travel with other automobiles. If they cannot do so, they should not travel on those roads. The same rational as to why you don't see bicyclists on highways.

I see your request as me deciding that I want to drive my car down the train tracks and then asking trains to work around what the limitations of my car are on the tracks.

[jrockway]

The infrastructure is outdated. It was designed for a world when pollution didn't matter, distances to be traveled were long, and oil was free. Now times have changed. Most trips are under 2 miles. Oil is pricey. We're killing the planet by pumping toxic fumes into the atmosphere.

It just isn't sustainable, but sustainable infrastructure costs too much money. So it's time to get rid of the cars, and let bikes fill the gap while we wait for proper mass transit to become affordable.

It's already happened everywhere except the US.

[logicalmind]

Clearly you're an idealist. I don't mean that as an insult. The problems you've brought up can be solved by other means while retaining the existing infrastructure. For example, you could have cars that are non-oil-based. You could increase the amount of telecommuting allowed by the workforce. I would think those things are more likely in the US than making everyone ride a bike.

Your vision of the future basically kills every suburb and urban area and would reduce humans to extremely high population densities in highly concentrated areas. Leading to problems of it's own. But we're really off-topic at this point.

Interestingly enough, you said above you are in chicago. The area I am talking about above is in the western suburbs of chicago.

[philwelch]

Which is why I said "If there was sensible infrastructure for commuting by bicycle, there wouldn't be a problem." There might be a few bike paths around for recreational use, but you're hard pressed to find adequate bike infrastructure in any American city. (More on this issue can be read here: http://daily.sightline.org/daily_score/series/bicycle-neglec...)

[logicalmind]

I completely agree with you (which was why I didn't respond to what you said). Doing something like adding a extra bike lane next to the car lanes and things like that. I would love to see something like that and it would probably make me want to bike to places more frequently as well. It would be safer for everyone.

[gensym]

The roads were built for multi-ton automobiles and bicycles. Because automobiles are less flexible than bikes in terms of radii and lane widths, their needs set the constraints for those factors. By "posted speeds", I assume you mean the designated upper-limit. No one is proposing that cyclists should be able to ride on roads with minimum limits that cyclists cannot maintain. This isn't that difficult to understand.

Bicycles can travel safely with automobiles. Automobiles, on the other hand, can often not travel safely with each other. Perhaps you mean "quickly" rather than "safely"?

Is your username some kind of a joke?

[iuyhgtfvgbhjn]

When I'm not cycling I have a Subaru WRX, and yet on the road I'm held up by all these people in SUVs,minivans and pickup trucks that can't do 0-60 in <5secs like I can.

Same on sidewalks - I'm jogging along and the sidewalk is crowded with old people that can't maintain a 50min 10K time, they should get out of my way.

[logicalmind]

Ironically, there is a law against accelerating too fast. It's usually called illegal "display of acceleration".

BTW, I have a Subura WRX STI (2006).

[iuyhgtfvgbhjn]

The reason I bike to work is that in the traffic here I can do the trip in 20mins vs >1hour in a car. The bike computer says I averaged just over 30km/h ,max 70km/h (there's a big hill!)

I even beat the neighbors Porsche on the bike - I don't have the STI and the WRX is detuned in this market so it can't beat the Porshce on it's own!

[jrockway]

I've done this in Seattle. There was one of those speed traps monitoring the speeds of cars; they were going over 35mph, and I was passing them.

The ride back home was not as fast, though.