[walrus01]

Digi Desert LLC, which existed in 2010? Looks like that's the AS of some entity that predates the existence of your project and current public relations effort.

You announce a whopping total of two v4 /24.

Kudos for having enough clue to know that you needed to establish a presence at a major IX, and actually doing it, because it looks like you're adding peers. But your actual network presence is minuscule.

How do you intend to compete with the six NYC based companies I can think of off the top of my head that are putting fiber fed, $9,000 to $20,000 5 to 10Gbps 71-86 GHz PTP links on rooftops to build their own backbones, when you're playing around with 1000BaseT to the roof and AF24s?

You have high uptime? Do you have any of the following, because some of your much larger competitors sure do:

sites with parallel A and B side power systems

-48VDC rectifier + battery systems sized for 24 hour runtime at load

diesel generators

propane generators

generator resupply contracts

chassis-based routers with hotswap fan, N+1 power supplies, dual redundant routing engines

pair of identical core routers

singlemode fiber to the roof

-48vdc power to the roof

ironclad rooftop lease agreements with building owners, drawn up by professional telecom/real estate lawyers that run for 5+ year terms

a 24x7x365 NOC staffed by live humans

[Someone1234]

Your original post was interesting because it raised legitimate questions about their operation. They answered those questions.

This follow up comes across as though you've drawn a conclusion and are now arguing towards that predetermined conclusion while ignoring the additional information provided. Plus your argument has kind of devolved from talking about specific concerns to throwing criticisms at the wall to see what sticks.

You don't seem to be arguing in good faith.

[walrus01]

I'm sharing some harsh reality with them: The ISP market in NYC is highly competitive. If they want to be serious about it, it's not going to work as a nonprofit. I'm trying to tell them bluntly about what sort of infrastructure their competitors operate so that they can get an idea of the actual capital expenditure requirements involved in architecting/engineering a MAN-scale, five nines ISP composed of point to point wireless links.

[ixiebosoeb]

Once upon a time there was a company called Microsoft. They hated free software! It costs millions to write an OS! Why is it free?? They hated the free guys so much. Then the free software got better. It got so much better than what you would have to pay for from Microsoft! Eventually Microsoft said oh well, and built the free software into their product. They even contributed back to that free software and everyone learned that you can have free and paid and as long as we all contribute the world is a better place. Thank you.

[neuromantik8086]

Once upon a time there was a chipmaker named Intel. Sun decided to open source its SPARC architecture. Other folks tried to design their own FOSS CPU architectures. Intel still dominates.

FOSS zealots like to point to the success of Linux over Windows (which is restricted to the server market, I might add), but there's little evidence that the FOSS philosophy is effective when it comes to physical infrastructure. Software requires bytes and labor. Bytes are cheap and labor can be donated or paid for by companies. Hardware requires fabs and factories, which are expensive.

[master-litty]

The reality is harsh but the discussion doesn't have to be.

[stale2002]

Well it seems to be working fine for them right now.

So I guess the points you brought up don't matter.

[nycmesh]

I don't think you get what we are doing at all! Anyway we are in 375 Pearl with a lease and it has most of your long list, diesel generators etc.

We compete on price (donation only)

[vermontdevil]

Keep up the good work. Love these kind of projects!

[Dowwie]

Hello from just across the Hudson River! Keep up the great work. You are finding a way, despite what doubters and naysayers think! You will know what is possible by trying.

[nycmesh]

https://www.peeringdb.com/asn/395853 NYC Mesh

What is your problem??

[walrus01]

You're wasting your own time and those of your "customers" unless you have at least $750,000 to establish a serious presence, in my opinion. Amateur-hour WISP stuff is fine in a rural area. You're pretending to be a highly reliable capable ISP, and will eventually either overextend yourselves, run out of rubes to fund you as a nonprofit, or once you reach a size much bigger than you are now, get stomped on and obliterated by a much larger competitor that overbuilds your entire network with carrier-grade infrastructure and takes all your revenue.

[nycmesh]

We are already self funded by individual donations. Every question I answer seems to bring up new objections.

[JustSomeNobody]

This thread has to be one of the most overtly hostile threads I've read on HN in a while. What is your concern here? Why do you seem to feel they shouldn't even be trying?

What ISP are you affiliated with?

[nycmesh]

We bypass traditional ISPs by connecting directly at an internet exchange point (DE-CIX IXP) and peering with other networks. This is basically how the internet is formed, by networks peering with each other. We don't need this ISP layer.

[untog]

I think the OP was asking what ISP walrus1 works for, given they've already identified themselves as a network engineer.

[JustSomeNobody]

I was referring to walrus1. Sorry for the confusion. Y'all keep doing what you're doing. I have big hopes for efforts like yours.

[nycmesh]

Thanks!

[quxbar]

I'm pretty sure the real secret is ensuring your customers have no alternatives. Spectrum may or may not have all of that gear and they still have given me outage and throttling issues for years. I don't want somebody to compete with the terrible ISPs out there today - they're fundamentally the wrong kind of organization. I'd rather have honestly crappy service than an opaque monopoly dictating my access.