[praha14]

I understand the argument that, once free from work, a number of people will voluntarily choose to work as physicists or playwrights or mathematicians.

What I haven’t understood, though, is why someone would choose to work as a bricklayer or spend their 20s sitting in a fluorescent office designing an industrial process to make ball-bearing lubricant 0.4% more efficient. It’s that sort of menial, unglamorous labor that our society and quality of life is built on.

[adrianN]

If people didn't have to work, the unappealing work that still needs to be done would probably pay a lot more than it does today.

[Siecje]

But it might not be worth it, to make that bearing more efficient if it costs more.

[adrianN]

True, but maybe such inefficiencies are counteracted by the increased number of people in fun jobs. Maybe it suddenly becomes worth it to do things we're currently not doing.

[mcphage]

> It’s that sort of menial, unglamorous labor that our society and quality of life is built on.

It's also that sort of labor that has been—and will continue to be—replaced by robots.

As for why someone would do that? Well, you still get paid your UBI even if you have a job. So they would do that for the same reason anyone does that—they want the money.

[realusername]

If the work isn't interesting, it just means the employer will need to pay more to attract people, UBI isn't a world without salaries.

[slx26]

Most people is not extremely bright. It can be very frustrating to attempt complicated things and not succeed. Even most bright people would rather do something boring from time to time. Maybe many "boring" jobs would get better social recognition, and would be seen as a contribution. Maybe we would develop a sense of duty towards that. Maybe many people would even do some of those jobs for free. Maybe people will start trying out many different jobs, changing between them a lot. Maybe jobs would change and become way more diverse: fun things on mondays and tuesdays; wednesdays reserved for the most boring tasks. We will never know without trying. There are many objective issues with UBI, but many of the problems we imagine are just due to our lack of imagination to see the ways in which society might evolve around them.

[jnwatson]

At one point in my life, I voluntarily gave up my job writing software to go sell it, even though I preferred the former. Why? To make more money.

It is true there are some folks who are fine with making the minimum, however I’d wager most would take a job to increase their income significantly.

[magduf]

That's because, for some strange reason, you're confusing UBI with some idealized form of communism.

UBI is Universal Basic Income. The keyword here is "basic". If you sit on your ass and collect UBI, you should receive enough money to let you live in a crappy apartment with roommates, and get some crappy food to eat at the local crappy grocery store. Do you want to live in a crappy apartment with roommates, and not be able to afford to eat at a nice restaurant? Me neither. If you want extra luxuries, you have to work more, to make more money. That's UBI in a nutshell.

[rc_hadoken]

Some people have no conception of crappy. I do get your point.

[nabc45]

>Do you want to live in a crappy apartment with roommates, and not be able to afford to eat at a nice restaurant?

That's how many people I know have lived their entire lives, even if they worked hard. And some of them because they could not find a job. Some are young some are old. You live in a bubble.

Do you really think most people, especially young people, can afford to live in an appartment of their own, or go eat at a nice restaurant? Do you think McDonalds is full of young people because it's better than a nice restaurant?

[smokeyj]

Do UBI supporters intentionally not understand supply and demand?

Who wants to work at a restaurant if they don’t have to? Who will lay bricks and take out the trash if they don’t have to? The idea that UBi can help people find fulfilling work leads to the question of who does the unfulfilling work.

[dx034]

In Europe, you already have some sort of UBI in most states. While it's often required that you actively look for a job, it isn't hard to get companies not to hire you. And yet, most people are actively looking for work. Because sitting at home all day for years is often worse than doing a menial job.

As a side note, working in a restaurant doesn't have to be a bad job. In the US it's often associated with low pay but there are a lot of people actually enjoying it (I know some).

[magduf]

Do UBI haters intentionally not understand wanting to have a better life?

People will work at a restaurant if they don't have to so they can afford a place without crappy roommates, or in a better part of town. It's really that simple. You work, even at a crappy job, and now you have more money than you get with the UBI alone. Is this really such a hard concept for you?

[smokeyj]

> and now you have more money than you get with the UBI alone.

And so does everyone else. Prices will reflect that.

> Is this really such a hard concept for you?

Yes, what's so hard about supply and demand? Housing costs too much? Increase supply. Healthcare costs too much? Increase supply. Education costs too much? Increase supply.

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here. It's all really simple. If you want the price to go down increase supply. I'm not saying it's easy - but nothing else will work. Redistributing costs more energy than is gained. If you want to help those in need, increase supply.

[magduf]

Ok, and WTF do you do for people who can't work, or aren't in a position to get a job, or simply cannot afford things at the prices they're at? You're never going to have free housing and food. That's why we have welfare systems, and that's what UBI aims to improve.

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here. It's all really simple. Welfare exists for a reason, even if people like you refuse to believe this.

[smokeyj]

> Ok, and WTF do you do for people who can't work, or aren't in a position to get a job

Make jobs that increase supply, and give some of that supply to those who can't work. China is building new cities from scratch, why not do that given the scope of UBI as an initiative?