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by goatlover 2991 days ago
> idiotic article about the brain not processing information

How about the brain creates information from constant interaction with the world based on the kinds of bodies we have and our needs/wants? This information doesn't exist as information until the brain creates it. Information is the product of minds. It doesn't exist in the world on it's own to be processed. As such, the brain is something other than a computing device. Computers exist because we figured out how to arrange physical systems to process information that's meaningful to us. But to nature, it's just a physical system (and not even that, since physics is a model of nature we create).

That's Jaron Lanier's paraphrased argument against thinking of the brain as a computer. To say that information exists in the world to be processed is to make a metaphysical commitment that information exists ready made for us.

> and there being something magical about human brains that cannot be simulated

It doesn't have to be magical. There are different philosophical views on the world and the mind which lead to different conclusions. If one takes the hard problem of consciousness seriously, then consciousness cannot be computed. Not because of magic or the supernatural, but just because consciousness is not computable, since computation is itself an abstraction (Turing machines don't exist on their own anymore than do any other mathematical systems). Unless your metaphysics falls along the lines of Tegmark, Plato or Wheeler (it from bit).

Instead you can think of The brain as an information creator. We give meaning to the world. We build models. The world itself just is, it's not information, math, physics or symbols.

2 comments

Computers interact with the world too. I'm looking at a screen that produces patterns of light based on the internal state of my computer. How is this different from a brain interacting with the world? The brain is a finitely sized hunk of matter and matter seems to follow laws. We currently have no reason to assume that those laws can't be simulated by sufficiently sized computer, so anything observable the brain does a computer can do too.
Yes, computers are physical systems. But what does their interaction mean without humans around to interpret their output?
"Not computable" is itself a strong claim that's never been proven.

What is true is that nobody has done it yet. The process is a mystery in the sense that it's not understood, which means that we don't know if it's computable or not.

The argument at the moment seems to be "define a problem that a computer can't do that a human brain can"... "I can't because expressing that problem is beyond the machinery I have developed for cognition, and it may always be".

What is certain is that there are uncomputable problems, but are any of the problems that humans solve in order to speak, act, socialise uncomputable? Some people think that because they are solved within the physical universe then they must be computable but that implies that the physical universe can be simulated (in principle) by a universal turing machine, since we can express problems (using the machinary of the universe) that a universal turing machine can't do then there is a gap that permits the possibility that there may be some process which is not simulatable by a universal turing machine.

In my belief free will/autonomy/initaitive/creativity are expressions of that process, but belief is not an argument.

> Some people think that because they are solved within the physical universe then they must be computable but that implies that the physical universe can be simulated

If you believe the brain exists in the physical universe, that means you can build a physical system that also solves the same problems.

> If you believe the brain exists in the physical universe, that means you can build a physical system that also solves the same problems.

Sure, but in the case of computation, is it possible to make a computing system that has subjective experiences? Maybe consciousness isn't something that can be expressed in computational terms, because computation is itself based on abstraction.

There is no way to define subjective experience such that you can tell whether something has them or not. The question is meaningless.
I think that is extremely austere, and misses a large part of the value of science and philosophy. In some ways the questions of cosmology matter far less to the vast majority of humans, and have in practical terms less qualification and quantification for those people than subjective experience communicated by drama, poetry and art. Stating that this is meaningless ignores the suffering and joy of humanity, and makes an unwarrented and low utility judgement about the set of beliefs that are legitimate in finding how things are.
Yes : but...

- "It" wouldn't be a "computer"

- you / someone would have to be able to understand it, which might be impossible (for a human)

- you would have to be able to construct it, which might be very very technically hard

but yes (ish)