[skybrian]

"Not computable" is itself a strong claim that's never been proven.

What is true is that nobody has done it yet. The process is a mystery in the sense that it's not understood, which means that we don't know if it's computable or not.

[sgt101]

The argument at the moment seems to be "define a problem that a computer can't do that a human brain can"... "I can't because expressing that problem is beyond the machinery I have developed for cognition, and it may always be".

What is certain is that there are uncomputable problems, but are any of the problems that humans solve in order to speak, act, socialise uncomputable? Some people think that because they are solved within the physical universe then they must be computable but that implies that the physical universe can be simulated (in principle) by a universal turing machine, since we can express problems (using the machinary of the universe) that a universal turing machine can't do then there is a gap that permits the possibility that there may be some process which is not simulatable by a universal turing machine.

In my belief free will/autonomy/initaitive/creativity are expressions of that process, but belief is not an argument.

[ghostcluster]

> Some people think that because they are solved within the physical universe then they must be computable but that implies that the physical universe can be simulated

If you believe the brain exists in the physical universe, that means you can build a physical system that also solves the same problems.

[goatlover]

> If you believe the brain exists in the physical universe, that means you can build a physical system that also solves the same problems.

Sure, but in the case of computation, is it possible to make a computing system that has subjective experiences? Maybe consciousness isn't something that can be expressed in computational terms, because computation is itself based on abstraction.

[adrianN]

There is no way to define subjective experience such that you can tell whether something has them or not. The question is meaningless.

[sgt101]

I think that is extremely austere, and misses a large part of the value of science and philosophy. In some ways the questions of cosmology matter far less to the vast majority of humans, and have in practical terms less qualification and quantification for those people than subjective experience communicated by drama, poetry and art. Stating that this is meaningless ignores the suffering and joy of humanity, and makes an unwarrented and low utility judgement about the set of beliefs that are legitimate in finding how things are.

[sgt101]

Yes : but...

- "It" wouldn't be a "computer"

- you / someone would have to be able to understand it, which might be impossible (for a human)

- you would have to be able to construct it, which might be very very technically hard

but yes (ish)