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by GCU-Empiricist 2988 days ago
Hmmm . . . so two questions:

1. (serious) What recourse do customers have when the company says your warranty is void because you broke the seal? Because the tech on the phone isn't going to have the power to do anything, he's reading from the binder. (Edit really asking: I'm sure someone here will already know the formal complaint process) /edit

2. (sarcastic) How long before the companies get the law changed de jurie instead of just de facto?

6 comments

For your first question, step 1 is to escalate and when you escalate make sure they know you are creating a paper trail. If you can use the term "paper trail" it will help get your call escalated. Ideally you will get to someone senior enough that you can mention this enforcement action by the FTC and they will recognize it.

If that fails, you take your paper trail to small claims court. This can be challenging in different circumstances to serve the other party but courts can be pretty liberal here in California. I was watching cases one day and the person had served Microsoft by giving the summons to a Microsoft Store employee who worked in a kiosk at the mall. Microsoft hadn't shown up so they won their default judgement and went to the next step which was to put a judgement lien on the corporation's assets. (long before that actually happens their legal team will pay you your damages).

You could concurrently file a complaint with the FTC. It won't give you any money but it will add on to other complaints and that will eventually get action (like this article). Getting a registered mail letter from the FTC tends to get the attention of the right people.

As for your sarcastic question it is isn't that manufacturers have tried to get the laws changed, they have been unsuccessful. Support the 'right to repair' efforts when you run into them, talk to your representatives if you get a chance. That will keep the pressure to maintain the status quo.

> For your first question, step 1 is to escalate and when you escalate make sure they know you are creating a paper trail. If you can use the term "paper trail" it will help get your call escalated. Ideally you will get to someone senior enough that you can mention this enforcement action by the FTC and they will recognize it.

Do try to avoid the term "lawsuit", though. If you do, any customer service rep that didn't sleep through training will hang up, leaving you free to converse with their legal department... Through snail mail.

Very good point. I usually say "so how do I spell your name again for my notes?" that is often enough of a clue.
Anyone dumb enough to hang up on customers is going to be fired when said snail mail arrives. The customer using the word lawsuit doesn't relieve you of your obligation to provide customer service and the appropriate action is escalation to a manager.
Anyone dumb enough to keep speaking, when everything they will say can, and will be used against their employer in a court of law will be fired when said snail mail arrives, not the other way around.

Terminating that call is the civil equivalent to: "I have nothing to say officer, I want my lawyer." The customer support reps aren't being paid for their profound understanding of what to say without opening up the firm to liability. They are being paid to shut up, and fob you off to the legal department, in response to threats of legal action.

Most situations can be resolved without actual legal action. Your customer presumably wants you to do something if it's reasonable to do so you should resolve their issue or escalate to a manager.

I've been involved in several issues where legal action was a valid threat. I can think of 5 occasions off the top of my head. These involved corporations and none were handled as you described and I've dealt with local government and corporations. Most were handled without court. All were dealt with acceptably in my favor.

Your suggestion would have wasted everyone's time and their money. It is simultaneously fictional and terrible advice. I promise you that your manager wants the option to handle these situations before they blow up into disasters

I disagree, I wouldn't want any of my minimum wage employees to be talking outside of the approved script for the reasons vkou said. It's too expensive to train someone who is probably only temporary anyway, and of questionable capacity to properly converse about legal technicalities. If a customer wants to escalate, then can escalate by sending an email to a manager. If the customer doesn't understand that, then they're free to hang up and help the next person.
I’ve been on the other side, and whether legal action is a valid option or not it doesn’t really matter.

Once you escalate to that point, we took it seriously, and you don’t speak over the phone to a minimum wage representative. If someone threatened legal action over the phone I would tell them management will be in touch with legal details, and terminate the call immediately.

I’m not saying you won’t get a satisfactory resolution out of it, but it will almost certainly end the call immediately.

Not literally hang up the phone, but when I worked in CS in a PC repair store, if someone mentioned lawsuit, small claims, courts or legal issues, I’d stop them immediately, and tell them that our management would be in touch with our legal details, and terminate the call immediately.

At that point, the onus is on management/legal to decide whether the threat is credible or not, but you don’t have a slightly above minimum wage kid getting everyone in trouble then.

I would expect a similar response from almost any CS representative for most companies.

You could try this: https://www.ftc.gov/faq/consumer-protection/submit-consumer-... Not sure if you'll get a response but it will raise some ire and the company is likely to take it seriously. Hopefully...
Use the small-claims court to get a refund on the broken item they refused to repair.
Also if you bought using an Amex they have a pretty decent return policy. Should cover cases like this.
I've usually had good luck filing claims with credit card companies, depending on how long it's been. The one downside is that the extended warranty service may not be as valuable as just filing a normal claim right after you buy something.
Unrelated, but, wasn't the Empiricist a System-class GSV? Although, always nice to bump into Culture fans..
Yes it's meant as a little bit of self depreciation on a name that's a personal reminder: "don't be the big butt plug"
1) My guess would be a lawsuit of some sort.
A lot of people forget small claims courts are an option, lawyers arnt allowed, and judges are pretty sensible. Its a good option for sub $10k USD claims.

Large corps are unlikely to even show up, meaning you win by default.

I've heard that just asking for the leagal department's address to send a small claims summons will get your issue resolved right away.
It's a good option for $1k-$10k claims.

It's not so great for a $150 claim when you take into account the filing fee and the time it takes.

Can you reliably get the fee back? Still a giant hassle.

Probably varies by jurisdiction, but I know in my jurisdiction, court fees and related costs (such as the cost of serving the summons on the defendant) are automatically added to the judgment if you win.
Yeah and this varies by person obviously. I wouldn't even think about small claims court unless I thought there was $1,000 or more recoverable.
> lawyers arnt allowed

Not true - any time you take a big corp to small claims court, they're going to send a lawyer to represent them. You are suing an entity, not a person, and the entity will pick who represents them.

Washington State:

"Unless a judge grants permission, Attorneys and paralegals are excluded from appearing or participating with the plaintiff or defendant in a small claims suit."

http://www.atg.wa.gov/small-claims-court-0

So who would show up to represent the defendant in the case where a multi-national corporation got sued? Do we expect that the CEO show up to every lawsuit? A randomly chosen employee?
Officially it can be any employee other than "an attorney-at-law or legal paraprofessional". I imagine most companies would send whoever has the best chance of explaining the issue away: some sort of expert or PR rep.
Operative word being with, I believe. If I am Microsoft, and I have a lawyer on staff, I should be able to send that lawyer.
I believe not, if you consult the full text:

> A corporation may not be represented by an attorney-at-law or legal paraprofessional except as set forth in RCW 12.40.025.

12.40.025 covers the transfer of cases from the district court to small claims, so for claims starting at the small claims level, the restriction appears pretty tight.

http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=12.40&full=true

Nope.. not if they passed the bar or are otherwise a paralegal.
Many small claims courts do not allow the company to send whoever they want. Some outright disallow sending lawyers.
For person to person suits, yes. For a suit against a corporation who has an attorney on staff? You're getting an attorney. Granted, it may be one who's not familiar with small claims court, but it'll be an attorney. BigCo isn't sending the CEO or the receptionist - they have a legal staff in house, they're gonna use them.
Not in California [1] in the general case.

[1] http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection...

Every state I have seen they have to send a Non-Lawyer Employee to Small Claims

The Small Claims court is specifically designed to not be handled by lawyers, even for business and "large corporations" does it does not matter if they have a laywer on staff unless the judge waives the rule the Corporation must authorize a non-lawyer to act as it represnative for the purposes of Small Claims.

That could be any employee approved by the Board of Directors, so no they would not send the CEO, but they likely would send a person who is viewed as an expert or have detailed information to defend the corporation against the claim in a Small Claims environment which is far far far far less formal than a Normal Court room.

In some states, companies have to send a regular employee to small claims court.

For example, in California, "a corporation may appear and participate in a small claims action only through a regular employee, or a duly appointed or elected officer or director, who is employed, appointed, or elected for purposes other than solely representing the corporation in small claims court."

http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection...

My naive reading of this leads me to believe that they can send a lawyer who is primarily employed for... A million and one other purposes. (M&A, non-small-claims-court litigation, contract law, etc.)

What they can't do is send a lawyer employee whose sole job is small-claims-court litigation.

The section the poster above you referenced also includes this:

> (m) Nothing in this section shall operate or be construed to authorize an attorney to participate in a small claims action except as expressly provided in Section 116.530.

Here is the relevant part of section 116.530 [1]:

> (a) Except as permitted by this section, no attorney may take part in the conduct or defense of a small claims action.

> (b) Subdivision (a) does not apply if the attorney is appearing to maintain or defend an action in any of the following capacities:

> (1) By or against himself or herself.

> (2) By or against a partnership in which he or she is a general partner and in which all the partners are attorneys.

> (3) By or against a professional corporation of which he or she is an officer or director and of which all other officers and directors are attorneys.

So...it looks like for a corporation that is not a professional corporation, they cannot send an attorney even if that attorney is a regular employee.

That does raise an interesting question. What happens if a corporation is not a professional corporation, but every officer, director, and employee is an attorney? They would not fall under the 116.530(b) exception, and so would seem to all be excluded uner 116.540(m).

[1] http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection...

but at the same time there really isnt any point for them to send a lawyer that is going to cost massively more than what the claim could be even theoretically.
There's one point:deterrence. Half of a corporate lawyer's work is about deterrence, anyway.
Unfortunate if so, nothing will change until someone organizes class actions, and then the victims get at best enough to buy a lunch, a cheap lunch.
You can't organize a class action, the companies had a shrink wrap agreement to mandatory arbitration.

Welcome to 21st century America.

Aren't you underestimating the ability of Americans to litigate, especially about whether they can litigate? I'm sue you are.
Unless the FTC decides to pursue the matter. The FTC can obtain relief for all US consumers and is not bound by the arbitration agreement.
Those are basically unenforceable. You file a lawsuit, big co asks to squash to arbitration, judge says wtf no, this is potentially a class act.. continue.
Unfortunately the Supreme Court disagrees with you

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/supreme-court-backs-...

The courts have disagreed amongst themselves regarding the legality of shrink wrap agreements.
does that still apply? The stickers aren't a misunderstanding, they're illegal. You can't fine print away crimes.
>Welcome to 21st century America.

Which is still more plaintiff-friendly than any jurisdiction in Europe.

Not exactly, since individuals could still file small claims suits to get their money back if they don't mind the prospect of giving up the product at issue. I have successfully done this myself under similar circumstances.