[zemanel]

In my current job, for a tech company with less than 12 people, at least 5 are interns. Two of them were recent hires (January) and before they were onboarded, i had a meeting with my boss and the other senior developer regarding the new interns and my boss stated he didn’t want me and other senior dev spending too much time mentoring the interns and that if they couldn’t manage by themselves, he would just let them go (one is software dev intern, relocated from Lithuania).

As far as i know, management provided zero training (online courses, conferences, books etc) and the dev intern is receiving 500€/month for 40h work week, which around Amsterdam/Netherlands hardly covers housing expenses in shared accommodation, even though the intern is soon expecting Erasmus support, which will alleviate his situation apparently.

Needless to say i find the situation rather vile independently if it’s a common practice or even if non-paid internships are common.

Recently i took the dev intern out for dinner and beers, gave him a few tips on how to improve himself to be ready for a decent job (online courses, writing blog posts etc) and told him he could repay me by paying forward to an intern at his next proper jobs.

As a note, another intern (part time) is also working on his maybe 5 years old laptop that apparently crashes a lot and can hardly run something like Pycharm.

I’m looking for another job :-)

[dep_b]

The Netherlands is a special place in Software Hell. Where the non-suits are only a cost.

"Devs can't be cheap enough! We can't find decent devs!"

[jacquesm]

That's a silly generalization. I've got a pretty good overview of software development in Western Europe and NL isn't a special place for better or worse compared to the surrounding countries.

If you want to get paid a lot more and you have the right skills the City or Silicon Valley are good options (assuming you are allowed to move there).

[dep_b]

Perhaps a bit over generalized but I do feel that there’s an unusual large gap in salary between suits and devs even when comparing to countries like Germany.

It doesn’t need to be a huge tech hub at all. Luckily English resembles Dutch so most Dutch speak it well enough to survive a job abroad.

[jacquesm]

The city-to-city variations in Germany are far larger than the city-to-city variations in NL because of the German history and the presence of Poland. So when you are comparing countries you need to go a bit deeper than that.

I know very well paid developers in NL and very poorly paid ones, it is mostly a matter of knowing what you are worth and refusing to charge less than that. You might find 'your spot' taken by a skilled immigrant but that's a relatively small chance.

I'd hate to have to find a developer job in Spain or Portugal judging by the number of people from there that have moved to either NL or DE. Anything East of the German-Polish border is going to pay a lot worse unless you are willing to move to Finland where there are pockets of start-ups with reasonable compensation.

Dutch developers moving abroad to increase their salary is not a trend as far as I can see.

[dep_b]

Yet across the Polish border developers are relatively well paid versus the suits and it's actually an attractive profession for people that are career oriented. I always see more women working in IT where the job actually pays well, including the US.

I know well paid developers as well, some niches pay pretty well. SAP for example. Or simply people that have domain knowledge that's irreplaceable and know how to negotiate. But something average like C#, RoR or Node development doesn't really pay well in The Netherlands. It's a decent salary but nothing to brag about.

[badpun]

> Yet across the Polish border developers are relatively well paid versus the suits and it's actually an attractive profession for people that are career oriented

My take on this: it's so easy for Polish developers to move to and find a job in Western Europe, that local companies have to pay salary that provides at least a roughly comparable living standard (vs the West)- as otherwise talented people would just leave. For "suits", on the other hand, there's far less opportunities abroad, so their wages don't need to track Western standards so much.

This effect is even stronger in Ukraine, where a teacher will be paid $300 (per month) while a dev will make $3000.

[nawitus]

What city?

[jacquesm]

"the City": London's financial services sector.

[robbintt]

"The City" - also refers to NYC if you are in the surrounding area, refers to Manhattan if you are in an outlying Borough, and refers to San Francisco if you are in the outlying Bay Area. I am sure there are more :)

[muninn_]

Well, if you're an exploited contractor from India or China or a member of a family that already has residence you should have no problem. If you're a well-educated person from the Netherlands you'll never get in - unless you try moving to Canada and use their point system.

[donkeyd]

As a Netherlander, I agree. There are so many bad developers here, and that's from somebody who considers himself barely able. Also, as a developer you're expected to do lots of unpaid overtime while getting paid the absolute minimum.

[mixmastamyk]

STEM "shortage" in a nutshell.

[teddythetwig]

Just want to point out that often the interns will receive additional compensation from their programs. When we hire interns from Erasmus+, they are given 500 euro from us, as well as 500 euro from their program. Additionally, Erasmus students are eligible for student housing from UvA or the VU. Finally, because they are in a special class, as interns, here in NL, we can actually get in trouble with the government for paying them more than 500 euro. It sounds to me like your management team isn't giving them the resources they need to survive in the city, but know that they are there. We have taken on four interns over the past two years, and after their internships placed them at large companies like Trivago and Elsevier, hired one on fulltime, and are working with the last to land a job in his preffered location. With the proper mentorship, it can be a great deal for students! If you are looking for a company where you are expected to mentor the junior devs and interns, send me a DM and we can see if you would be a good fit :)

[hetspookjee]

I have a hard time believing that you will get in trouble for hiring interns and compensate them more than 500 euros. In the NL you aren't even obliged to give them any compensation and if you are compensating them you are free to do so as much as you'd wish.

Internships in the Netherlands are akin to modern slavery imo. You work full time and with luck you get a compensation of 500 euros a month,though often no compensation is more likely to be the case. You will get a maximum loan of 1100 euros a month from the government, so a lot of students have to take on a second job if they don't get any compensation at all at their internship.

National institute of neuroscience provides no compensation whatsoever, and for applied mathematics students the average compensation is around 200 euros.

Obviously not wholly related to your comment but the internship situation in the Netherlands really grinds my gears.

[tremon]

Normative answer (in Dutch), I have no practical experience either way: https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/minimumloon/vraag-e...

Your employer has no obligation to compensate for your internship, but is not prohibited either. There is no minimum or maximum amount set for this compensation.

The focus for internship should be on training, not work. If the Inspectie SZW (employment auditor) finds that the internship consisted of mostly paid work, the employer will be ordered to salary the intern according to normal wages [effectively, minimum wage].

However, there is a practical limit to compensation: students earning more than E20,000 a year are no longer eligible for the student loans you mention.

[hetspookjee]

AFAIK that maximum is only for the "gift" that was superseded by a loan which has no max income limit.

[teddythetwig]

Oh believe me... Coming from the US, the summer between my first and second year, I was compensated 5k for three months of work. When I first heard what was standard in NL I was shocked. Then again, I was also paying 50k per semester for school, soooo yeah, take your pick haha. I wouldn't say slavery, more like indentured servitude. Anyways, I make it my personal goal to give our interns as much of mine and our senior devs' time as possible, as well as support after their internship is over.

[megaman22]

I would hope you'd make more than $5k working in software for a summer. I was making that a decade ago wearing a hard hat and pushing a broom in a power plant on my summer breaks...

[the-dude]

> I have a hard time believing that you will get in trouble for hiring interns and compensate them more than 500 euros.

Student visas?

[cr1895]

>Finally, because they are in a special class, as interns, here in NL, we can actually get in trouble with the government for paying them more than 500 euro.

Hmm...I don't think you are correct, or possibly you are misconstruing a limited, special case to generally apply.

From my own experience I earned more than 600eur as an intern in the NL, and I had classmates who earned full minimum wage as interns too (~1200eur).

[expertentipp]

He is being paid with generous social security net (for which he doesn’t necessarily qualify) and with the priviledge of living in developed country with extensive infrastructure... /s

[jjkk0101]

I understand your sarcasm, but what is sad some people actually think this way.

[gnclmorais]

> I’m looking for another job :-)

Good, I was just going to suggest that!

[thepratt]

Is there no room to fight management or make them understand?

[zemanel]

High probability of “not productive effort”, i’m fighting my own rather serious battle with management at the moment.

On further note, before i started the contract i was asked to bring my own laptop as work computer, i didn’t necessarily agree (for all the obvious reasons as security and business/personal risk) but he was being pushy about i said i could take my laptop (at least to get started) and i was expecting to get a working computer. I never did. Management recently purchased brand new macbook pros and iphonex for themselves (which they are in their full right to do).

So i didn’t even dare to criticize them regarding the interns. I already got myself in boiling water by criticizing management in that the way projects and tasks were being managed was highly unprofessional and my only wish is if i could leave a warning sign for interns (and devs) to keep clear of this company (or think really hard on how much they need the job)

Edit: which is unfortunate given that the projects there are interesting in my opinion

[marrs]

    I already got myself in boiling water by criticizing
    management in that the way projects and tasks were being
    managed was highly unprofessional...

Communicating with managers is a bit of an art. I think a large part of what makes a developer "senior" is their ability to do this effectively.

I'm not making any comments on your personal situation, but as a general rule it's important to talk in terms of solutions and not problems. So don't say, "we have a problem and here is my recommendation to solve it". Say instead, "I think we can improve our productivity by...", or "I think we can save some money by...".

Do some calculations to help sell your case. You want to spend time optimising the build process? Record how long it takes to build the code currently. Maybe it takes 5 minutes. Maybe you build the software no fewer than 12 times a day. That's an hour of productivity wasted per developer. Do the maths, convert it into dollars. Then say, "we can save X dollars a week by optimising the build process. We spend a week working on this, we will have made our money back within a month (or whatever it is)."

Your manager will be quite happy to go to the board to tell them that he's improved efficiency by a factor of X.

Highlighting existing problems, even whilst providing solutions can put a manager on the defensive when you really need him to be your ally.

Obviously I'm not saying never highlight problems. Sometimes you have to highlight problems, but it requires delicacy and if you don't need to, then don't. You probably don't need to a lot more than you think. We developers tend to put the problem first and the solution afterwards and it's quite hard to put aside that mindset when talking to stakeholders. Even Elon Musk finds this hard to do when talking to the press. It's quite funny to hear him talking about all of a Tesla's inefficiencies while trying to sell it!

Also be patient. Your manager actually needs to be convinced of what you're saying; he can't just take your word for it. So if you see an example of how your solution would have prevented a problem that just had to be dealt with, point it out. Take him on a journey, to use an old cliché.

[Klinky]

This doesn't work if you need help and resources to find solutions to said problems. You cannot solve everyone else's problems and implement solutions for them. You can suggest solutions, but someone has to give the okay and devote the time to implementation. If every problem you see requires you to submit a lengthy solutions proposal to the people who should be solving it themselves, you'll get burned out.

[marrs]

No, but you can solve the problems you can solve. That will give you currency to buy respect, trust, and responsibility.

I'm not suggesting you shouldn't do anything without getting permission first, but for the things you do need permission for, the above advice might help.

[Klinky]

Do you really want to use that currency to buy, trust respect, and responsibility for things outside your job description?

You have to watch out that a "go getter" attitude doesn't result in you just getting overburdened.

[marcosdumay]

> which they are in their full right to do

They seem to be scamming the shareholders diverting money from productive investment into their self worth. It's not your problem, but it's not in their full right to do either.

[zemanel]

I do not believe they have shareholders. Afaik, the company business model is around providing tech services for humanitarian aid institutions and at least some revenue comes from that type of donor funding

[marcosdumay]

If they don't have money for buying proper productive equipment, but spend what they have in unproductive ostentatious stuff for management, they are very likely defrauding somebody. It may be shareholders, donors, tax-payers, or somebody else, but they are hurting somebody.

It is also almost certainly not the employees (unless it's a cooperative).

[sundvor]

That sucks. Posting on Glassdoor could help, unless you risk your position before you have a new one with too much identifiable information. Definitely post after.

[consp]

I have worked on my own laptop for a while (due to startup lack of money, it was either wage or the laptop at some point due to liquidity issues), with one point made to my employer: All copyright on work done on my laptop belongs to me, and only me. You can 'rent' it by paying me my wage but as soon as I leave, all code on it is mine and I'm taking it with me for future 'reference'. Don't know how this works legally but since I'm not a self employed person who has a business contract, I'm pretty sure you cannot legally force someone to use their own stuff without compensation.

I told them they could pay me a compensation (for using/bringing my own tools) but that is quite expensive since most deductions don't count for this. Even more expensive than buying a proper laptop. Quite quickly I got a proper company laptop after finances improved to resolve the issue.

On another note:

In my experience the term 'middle management' is a synonym for corrupt, useless idiots so getting rid of them saves huge amounts of money since they add no value to any product or to the company as a whole. Unfortunately there is no way to even moderately grow within most companies around here except for a management track which is idiotic since specialists are way more valuable to the gross product of the company.

and: Never underestimate the value of skilled workers and how to keep them or train them. In software they are your main business. Everything else is easily replaceable.

[Itaxpica]

All copyright on work done on my laptop belongs to me, and only me. You can 'rent' it by paying me my wage but as soon as I leave, all code on it is mine and I'm taking it with me for future 'reference'. Don't know how this works legally but since I'm not a self employed person who has a business contract, I'm pretty sure you cannot legally force someone to use their own stuff without compensation.

In the US at least, any work you do for an employer and get paid for is covered under what are called work-for-hire laws which assign the copyright to the company, unless you have a written contract stating otherwise. This is true regardless of what equipment you use, and there’s absolutely zero legal barrier to a company asking you to use your own equipment in the course of a job without any compensation. The fact that your ultimatum wasn’t met with a “lol no” from Legal is pure luck.

[throwawayfh9]

Why are the people who are so cocksure always the ones who know the least? “I’ve (incorrectly) interpreted copyright law, and I admit I don’t know how the law works, but I’m pretty sure I’m right.”

[BraveNewCurency]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

[mywittyname]

They don't think the rules apply to them, so they don't care what the rules are.

[jpindar]

>I'm pretty sure you cannot legally force someone to use their own stuff without compensation.

That's the norm in some professions. Welders and mechanics often have their own tools, which can cost a lot more than a laptop.

[lonnv]

What kind of dev job are you looking for? The company I work for is hiring.

[jacquesm]

Cup of tea or coffee?

[zemanel]

Sure why not, i’ll drop you an e-mail