[oflannabhra]

>you can't keep it away from forced updates

I fail to see how that is the case? Apple neither forces OS updates, nor forces app updates. An iPad will perform exactly the same, given the same software, after 5 years or 10 years, and the user is in control of that software.

If you are speaking of services, well, that's not unique to iPads, or Apple, but is a consequence of the Internet.

[crazygringo]

If you stick to an old iOS, you lose the ability to install usable applications at all.

Apple will let you download the most recent version of an app supported by your OS... but only if you'd installed it previously. If you try to install an app for the first time, it won't give that option, and will instead tell you to upgrade your iOS instead. And then there's the fact that many of the old apps simply won't work, because they rely on out-of-date API's no longer supported by servers.

Due to the inability to choose versions of apps to install, I'd say that in iOS the user is not in control of their software.

[thinkythought]

This isn't entirely true, and only applies to really old versions of iOS like 6, on truly old devices(ipad 1, iphone 4, etc). I just installed some new applications on my ipad 3 running iOS 9 this weekend with no issues. It grabbed the newest compatible version, and i was able to start plugging away almost immediately.

The only thing that hamstrung me was having to sign out and in to the itunes store once, but i was able to install several games and hulu(which worked!)

I do wish you got a popup with a few options of which point release to install, but i think "newest compatible point release" is a good system for 99% of users

[khedoros1]

> and only applies to really old versions of iOS like 6, on truly old devices(ipad 1, iphone 4, etc).

I find this amusing; iOS 6 is just 4 years old (at least, the newest revision of it). My iPod Touch is about 9, and started losing access to new apps about 6-7 years ago.

And of course, Youtube, Netflix, and such stopped supporting the relevant codecs years ago too.

[scarface74]

No they haven't. Netflix works on all of the devices Apple has introduced since 2010. I know. I have all three of them.

[khedoros1]

Hi! I'm not talking about a device introduced after 2010; I'm talking about a device introduced in 2007, and which I bought about mid-2008. You have 3 devices that I wasn't talking about (beyond being amused by iOS 6 and iPhone 4 being called really/truly old).

Back to the iPod Touch that I was talking about: The Netflix app that's on there (the newest available for iPhone OS 3.1.3) apparently can't authenticate with Netflix's current backend. Their site says that there's a version for iOS 5 that will still work, and that the current version requires iOS 9.

[scarface74]

That's true. I also have a first gen functional iPod Touch from 2007. It's not a codec issue, Netflix doesn't support that version of the authentication API.

As I said in another post, comparing the longevity of a mobile device in its first decade to a PC is Apples and Oranges.

Today, I have a few 10 year old computers that are still being used either by me or my parents. My 10 year old PC, I'm using as a plex server can use modern USB 2 peripherals, has gigabit Ethernet that takes full advantage of my gigabit internet, runs a modern OS (Windows 10), etc. It has a 1920x1200 display. It has 4Gb RAM but can be upgraded to 8. 10 years later, most consumer PCs come with 8GB.

Now in 2008, my Gateway Solo from 1998 with an 800x600 display, 16Mb RAM, no USB, and a 4GB hard drive would have been useless. It definitely couldn't run modern software.

But going back to iPads. Compare the longevity of the iPad in 2010 running iOS 5 with a 2007 iPod Touch that came out 4 years earlier. On the other end, compare the longevity of an iPad 2 that got upgraded from iOS 5 to iOS 9 to the first gen that only got upgraded from iOS 3 to iOS 5. I fully expect to see the usefulness of mobile devices - at least on the Apple side where you actually get OS updates to continuously lengthen.

[kup0]

Was helping someone out recently with getting their iPhone set up to download apps. They had the phone for a while but only used it as a phone (they aren't tech-savvy). We couldn't even install the Kroger (grocery store) app because it said it required iOS 11, and she was still on 10.

She was not given the option to download an older version compatible with iOS 10 and the device is old enough that it does not support iOS 11.

[Karrot_Kream]

> on truly old devices(ipad 1, iphone 4, etc)

When I was growing up, my parents would give me their 5 year old hand-me-down computers, which were already 4-5 years old or so. the iPhone 4 is 8 years old, so that would already be DOA for my teenage self.

[thinkythought]

This still holds up too. My mom is using my ipad air, which is now about 5 years old. Current software, runs smoothly, no complaints

[rahimnathwani]

I'm using an iPad Air 2, and I've found it sluggish for the past year or so. Still usable, but I've switched to preferring to use my phone for quick searches and 50% of idle surfing/shopping.

My dad is happy with his iPad 4th generation, which is one iOS version behind. But he is more patient than I, and also it's his only internet-connected device, so he's not comparing it to a fast PC or fast smartphone.

[Karrot_Kream]

Yeah sorry, I wasn't really objecting to the parent comment. My sister used an iPad from 2007 until earlier this year, when she upgraded to an iPad from 2016.

[crankylinuxuser]

Are we on HN seriously arguing who controls an iOS device?

Can I:

     1. Download iOS program binary
     2. Install said iOS binary
     3. Inspect files copied on by installing binary
     4. Modify said files

The answer to all of those is no. Who can?

Apple.

[earenndil]

You can, if you jailbreak. I'm not defending apple, I think it's incredibly shitty what they've done but what you're describing is absolutely possible. Beyond that, having modified those files, it's possible to install the modified program on a non-jailbroken device.

[scarface74]

Or you download it from iTunes.

Apple still makes an older version of iTunes available.

[ksk]

Apple uses dark patterns to trick you into updating. Not to mention that if you accidentally do update, they purposely make it impossible to go back to the factory state. Updating would be no issue if they were beneficial, and most of them usually are. However, once you're 1-2 years in, newer firmware slows down the device, and can also cause apps you paid good money for, to stop working, or be rendered incompatible. In other cases, the only way fix a messed up ios device is to do a full system reset and guess what, you're forced by apple to use the latest firmware. Its a complete shitshow as far as I am concerned.

[neilpomerleau]

Apple doesn't force OS updates, but they promote them very aggressively. And if you accidentally update, Apple makes it impossible to downgrade.

[Alterlife]

In India, I got my iPhone serviced for a camera issue. They updated the device to the latest iOS before returning it to me. I was given no choice in the matter.

Wouldn’t be surprised if they do it for battery replacements as well.

[badpun]

> Apple neither forces OS updates, nor forces app updates

Apple does not, but vendors of networked apps often do in practice (as they don't want to maintain backcompat APIs on the server side). So, you may be perfectly happy with iOS7 on your iPad2, but one day your Skype just stops working, and it demands an update to its newest version - which in turn requires a modern iOS, installing which will effectively brick your tablet. This way, little by little, your tablet's functionality is taken away from you.

[ianferrel]

> Apple neither forces OS updates, nor forces app updates.

A daily (?) annoying prompt to update the OS that can't be permanently banished isn't technically a "forced" update, but it's a clear degradation of usability.

[GSimon]

> Apple neither forces OS updates, nor forces app updates

In practice they do. I recently deleted a timelapse app from my new phone (se) because the app wouldn't work with the new update. That may not be the best airtight example as the new OS update I did 'choose' to upgrade to which did somehow break the app, and the creator didn't release an updated version for the new OS, but in a real world scenario are you going to discontinue OS updates on a device you purchased months earlier for a few apps? Meanwhile there's decade old computers running windows xp that have no problems starting photoshop 7.0. There's also this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PH1BKPSGcxQ showing Windows upgrades from earliest versions to newest and software like excel being compatible from earliest versions onward.

[krrrh]

Except Microsoft officially stopped supporting Windows XP in 2014[1], and they had already extended support much longer than they had wanted to because XP was so long-lived and customers pushed back against having to upgrade to Vista. Vista support completely ended last year, and mainstream support for 7 ended in 2015, and 8.1 last month[2]. If you upgraded that decade-old computer to a secure OS then it will almost certainly run terribly. It's fine to run Photoshop 7 on an old PC that's not connected to the internet, but how realistic or useful is that?

Under the old desktop upgrade model it's easier to run an unmaintained OS, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea.

Edit: Obviously running a lightweight linux distro is an option for the more technically minded, and it would be great to see projects like https://www.postmarketos.org become more widespread for extending the life of tablet and phone hardware.

[1] https://support.microsoft.com/en-ca/help/14223/windows-xp-en...

[2] https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/lifecycle/search?alpha=W...

[khedoros1]

> If you upgraded that decade-old computer to a secure OS then it will almost certainly run terribly.

If I chose to put Windows 10 on my 9 year old desktop, it'd run better than Windows 10 on the laptop I bought a year ago as a netbook-style machine. Anything that can run Windows 7 well can run Windows 10 well, and machines that would be well-suited to Windows 7 weren't uncommon a decade ago.

But that's all beside the point. The point is that having a single source for software to run on a piece of hardware, and not having control over access to your software, puts a hard upper limit on how long a device will be useful. It's more practical to do something useful on the 18 year old Windows 98 machine I've got at home than my iPod Touch that's half that age. My Android tablet is just a couple of years younger; it's still a useful device because I can keep around backups of apks, download software from project pages, or add one of several app stores that still provide working software.

[GSimon]

There's lots of software that is still being used on machines running Windows XP, some aren't connected to the internet and others are -gasp- risking the lack of windows support (which was generously offered for nearly two decades.) exposing their photoshop to vulnerabilities. You can be pedantic and alarmist about my specific example and ignore the general point of software compatibility if you want I guess. IRL there are 3yr old dated, useless iPads everywhere and that's not the same with even most 5yr+ year old PCs (which would have the specs to upgrade to a new OS and not break your existing software, if you choose to do so)