[bayindirh]

This is not an apples to apples comparison. I've given examples from runtime, not from development time.

OTOH, refactoring in C++ is not hard, at least from my experience. With some knowledge of the language, everyone can write reasonably bug-free C++ (or any other language) application in one go.

Compilation in C++ is a different story. C# is not native. It's converted to CLI (was that the name, I don't use Win32 for ~15 years), then JIT compiles it to machine code, and optimizes over and over in every execution.

Yes, C# is reasonably fast, but it's not native, cross platform (mono doesn't count), and designed to be a systems programming language.

People tend to think C++ is overly verbose, no. Win32 programming model forces simple operations to be long and time consuming for a programmer to implement. Opening a file, serial port, or anything is a single line, because of the (while not everyone likes it) "everything is a file" philosophy, which makes UNIX and C++ much easier, verbose, and accessible.

[pjmlp]

C# is surely native as well.

It can be compiled to native code just like C++ via NGEN, .NET Native, CoreRT, IL2CPP, Bartok, Mono AOT.

Or if you prefer, C++ is not native. It's converted to LLVM bitcode, OS/400 TIMI, WASM,....

Lets not mix languages with implementations.

[bayindirh]

> It can be compiled to native code...

In that sense, you are absolutely right.

However, for simplicity I only thought about the out of the box experience, or by the de-facto implementation of the said languages, since it’s the most popular usage scenario as well.

[pjmlp]

Well, since Windows 8 .NET store apps don't support JIT, they only run AOT compiled to native.

And NGEN is a standard component of the .NET SDK since the beta days.

So AOT compilation has been part of the default tooling since ever.

[gpderetta]

I guess native needs to be qualified. I would say that Native means it speaks the ABI of and fits into a specific platform.

I would say that the C family languages are traditionally native of most operating systems [1] as they are polyglot and can directly speak whatever C ABI dialect is used there; they also work with the native platform tools.

C# is really native of the .Net platform and although it can be AoT compiled it either can't talk directly with Win32 or the interfacing is not seamless. Also it has its own set of tools.

Android and iOS are interesting because although they are clearly unix derivatives, the unix interface is not the primary interface; so arguably C and C++ are not really native there while Java and ObjectiveC/Swift respectively are.

[1] Or to be fair, of unix and any operating system that can be made to look like unix (Windows).

[pjmlp]

> Win32 or the interfacing is not seamless

Well then Rust, D, Swift, Go, Rust, Haskell, OCaml are not native by that measure.

C# integration with Win32, COM and UWP (aka COM reborned) is painless comparing with any of them.

[gpderetta]

I think Rust and D have seamless integration with C style ABIs. Swift is native on iOS. Haskel and OCaml have, as far as I understand, painful FFIs and a relatively heavy runtime so I wouldn't call them native.

edit: to be clear, using 'compiles to object code' as the definition of Native, is both a misuse of the word, and meaningless as it is a implementation detail that can change easily and bound to be obsolete quickly.

[bayindirh]

Well, I’m not very knowledgeable about Windows world, as I said before, I’m not using Windows for 15 years or so. So, my bad, sorry.

[pjmlp]

If you, or others want to know a bit more about it,

NGEN

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/framework/tools/ngen...

AOT Compilation for Windows 8.x store apps, based on Singularity's Bartok compiler

https://channel9.msdn.com/Events/Build/2012/3-005

https://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Mani-Ramaswamy-an...

AOT Compilation for Windows 10 store apps, using Visual C++ backend

https://channel9.msdn.com/Shows/Going+Deep/Inside-NET-Native

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/framework/net-native...

[bayindirh]

Thanks a lot. I will read them as soon as possible.