Ask HN: Presenting or explaining past illness in a job application

[MurkyPast]

Hello. Throwaway profile here.

What's the best way to present a period of illness in job applications?

During my Batchelors degree I was horribly unwell. I was in and out of hospital with some life threatening stuff, and scraped my degree with very poor grades. I worked for a few years, quit to do a Masters degree, did that rather well, and am now applying for jobs again.

I like to be upfront about things, but I also don't like scaring people off. In five years or so I can probably leave any mention of grades off my resume, but at this point it would just look suspicious.

[maryrosecook]

Your Masters will appear first on your resume, so the recipient will see you are capable of getting good marks before they see your bad marks for your undergraduate degree. When you state the marks of the latter, perhaps include a sentence along the lines of, "I was seriously ill in hospital during this period, and so got uncharacteristically low marks." Any further explanation (which should not be necessary) can be left for the interview.

[crpatino]

Do not put seriously ill anywhere on your resume.

So what if you got bad grades as an undergraduate? If you did ok on the masters, everybody will think that you was a lazy guy who's grown up since then. Also, if your grades where remarkably bad, don't put those in. People will assume they were average bad, now awful.

On the other hand, if you disclose you have had serious health problems, you raise a yellow flag. Does not matter if you have no long term sequels, if there is a suitable candidate with no yellow flag, H.R. is going to take the safe bet. You will not even get a chance to explain yourself.

[tptacek]

Are you looking for a job in technology? They probably don't care about your grades at all. You may be overthinking this.

[jmatt]

I agree. I never put my grades on my resume. It was what I did outside of school and how I interviewed that mattered.

Don't be ashamed of your illness. Be direct, honest and proud that you got a degree at all. You presumably came out of the illness stronger and with a different perspective on life. As someone who also went through illness in the past - there is something to be said about how such illness affects one's character. Use that to your advantage if they ask about your bachelor's degree.

[learner4life]

Did you not put grades when you were graduating out of college? My boss considers it a big no when a recent grad refuses to put grades. I have seen that grades or even degrees do not matter when you claim experience and knowledge. But that seems not to be the case where your masters is a big talking point.

[jmatt]

Did you not put grades when you were graduating out of college?

I think the top recommendations that were made to me about resumes were be specific with your accomplishments, don't lie, play to your strengths and don't have a $%!$ing typo. If you've done anything extraordinary put it on your resume. For instance I was a student senator and had done a lot of mountaineering - that was on my resume. Your job is to sell yourself and standout. So if that means leaving off average or poor grades - that's fine.

Here is my experience coming out of college. My first two jobs were while I was still in school.

My first "real" programming job was doing research on C# and .NET when it was still in beta. I attended OOPSLA that year and met the right people at the right time. Some people from the compilers team offered to keep in contact and I followed up on that to my benefit. I remember one of the guys from the C# compiler team was unemployed when he graduated (previous tech bubble). He wrote a java program to showcase his programming skills and it got him hired at Microsoft on the C# compilers team. Still the "place to be" when he was hired.

My second "real" programming job ended up being my own small business that was momentarily profitable. That was when some friends of mine said I should apply at a startup that they worked at in town. I applied and was hired. I worked there part time and eventually I was making more money doing that than running my business. After I was working full-time they didn't want me to finish my degree because it was getting in the way of work. The lesson there was as soon as your bosses know that they have someone that is competent everything changes.

On paper at the time I don't think there was a chance I would have had anyone choose my resume from a pile and call me up. Luckily I knew a lot of smart programmers that actively recruited me. Most hiring managers will contact you if they have a recommendation and legible resume.

When I interviewed at the startup I was woo'ing them with stories of my small business success more than they were grilling me. I had recently done research for the university and Microsoft in C# and since it was such a new platform I had about as much experience as anyone. When I asked for a salary they offered me $7k over what I asked for. (Ya that was an epic-fail on my part)

My next job was post startup acquisition (no worries I didn't have equity). My degree was a minor point because of all I had accomplished at the startup.

I have a number of friends that have really great traditional resumes. They are now all over the place. If I were looking for a full-time gig I'd start with them. Probably looking to get in on some contract work. Then from there investigate getting hired full-time. I think that is current path to most full-time programming jobs.

[tptacek]

Respectfully, but your boss sucks at hiring. I've never been asked my grades. I've never asked after anyone else's grades. And, when I see grades on people's resumes, the very first thing I think is "this person is very junior". Most pro's don't list their grades.

Just leave the grades off. You will be fine, I promise.

[AmberShah]

"refuses to put grades"

Well, sure when you put it that way it sounds bad. It's extremely common to see resumes without grades (and is often advised by career services for people with low grades). It sounds like your boss cares more about grades than someone who'll do a good job, and then that isn't a good fit for this person anyways.

[jrockway]

Indeed. Grades have never come up in any interview I've ever had. The only conversation I've ever had went something like, "Oh, UofI, great school." "Nope, I went to the one in Chicago." and that was that :)

[MurkyPast]

Well, it's very reassuring to hear this from two of the Hacker News Illuminati.

[martythemaniak]

Yep. I had bad grades in school as well, so I didn't put them on my resume when looking for my first job and it was never an issue.

[benmccann]

It would not look suspicious to leave grades off your resume. It's uncommon to place grades on a resume and employers would not blink twice at this information not being present. I graduated with a 3.8 GPA only a few years ago and do not put it on my resume.

[MurkyPast]

But that's different. If you applied for a job and in the process someone asks "By the way, what was your GPA?" and you tell them "Oh, 3.8" then it's fine. If you reply with poor grades, to me it casts things in a bad light as it looks like you're leaving off damaging information.

Maybe tptacek is right and I'm overthinking things...

[benmccann]

It's pretty uncommon to list this info and grades don't matter. I really wouldn't worry about it much. I've interviewed at plenty of companies and been an interviewer at a couple of them (I'm doing an interview tomorrow actually) and never once have I heard anyone ask about grades.

Also, your resume is supposed to cast you in the best possible light. Once you get the interview no one will look at it. A resume reveals how good candidates are at self-promotion more than anything, so I skip right over it without even a glance and ask candidates questions which will reveal if they're bright and know how to write software.

[jrockway]

I disagree. I interview people on a regular basis and I have never even considered thinking about asking them about their grades. All I care about is the ability to answer our interview questions. ("But what if someone's not good at reversing a linked list on the whiteboard," you say? Then they can work somewhere else.)

[alinajaf]

As someone who didn't have particularly good grades, I've been in this situation. In about eight job interviews, only once did someone show surprise when I told them my grades. Its as big an issue as you make it.

[sharpn]

If you mention it at all, I suggest being bold - under a heading of 'Other Achievements' include a brief sentence about overcoming the illness - alongside any sporting success or open source work etc. This frames the illness as (ultimately) a success, rather than as a weakness. Hope you find the right job.

[MurkyPast]

Thanks. I'll think about that.

[scott_s]

You finished your Master's. Your undergrad grades are irrelevant now.

[jleader]

It may depend on the sort of jobs you're applying for, and there may be cultural differences. For the area I'm familiar with, high-tech non-defense jobs in the US, I'd say leave the old grades off. I've heard that in some other countries, there may be more emphasis on having followed the "correct" path.

I'm trying to remember if I've ever seen someone with an advanced degree put their bachelors GPA on their resume.

If someone asks about your bachelors grades (very unlikely), you've actually got a great story that proves your ability to achieve your goal (graduate from college) in the face of outrageous obstacles. I'd say that's a much more impressive achievement than most recent Masters graduates can point to in their undergraduate record!

[patio11]

People who have done things do not need to cite grades on resumes, at all. They are a proxy for future doings among those who have not yet done.

[amorphid]

Your illness doesn't matter. Telling an employer cannot help you. You only need to convince someone you are the best person moving forward. Easiest way to avoid bringing the question is to leave GPA off resume. No employe should ask about health. If they ask about GPA, just tell them you had to balance abnormally tough family issues that are resolved and no longer a factor.

[joecode]

A resume should play to your strengths, and not get too personal. If your grades were bad then, leave them off, but show how awesome you are anyway. If they ask at an interview, just be completely upfront about it. Say they were good in grad school, but bad in undergrad because you were sick.

[todayiamme]

You know what the funny thing is? If you are up front about the fact that you have an illness it can be in fact beneficial for you. Down the line if your cancer ever resurfaces (I hope not) and you lose your job due to some insurance giant. Then that will be a bad place to be in.

So, on the other hand through disclosure (in the interview perhaps?) you can test the company's policy pre-emptively without going through significant pain during that time. It will be harder finding a job, but when you do find one it ought to be worth it.

However, this is a really dangerous line to walk and I really think that you need to move to a country in the EU. Over there, you will be protected in the work force and thanks to the health system things have a better chance of working out...

[MurkyPast]

Many of the jobs I will be applying for are in Europe, and as an EU citizen the insurance isn't an issue. But I am also applying to several in the US, so this is all quite helpful.

[AmberShah]

Do not mention your grades on your resume. About half the people won't even ask or care. The ones that do will ask and that is the time to explain what you got and why it was low.

When I was graduating they told us that if you got above 2.5 put it on there, below don't put it on there. Now that I've been out awhile I think that's probably a decent rule of thumb. Personally I don't put it on there even though I did fairly well.

[takrupp]

It depends on whether you are going through a recruiter or not. A recruiter can broach that topic a little more gently than speaking with your prospective employer. If that's not a possibility, leave the GPA off there and put a bullet with "medical leave: XXXX - XXXX". Your employer will ask, talk about it frankly at that time.

[MurkyPast]

Maybe I've just had bad luck, but in my experience recruiters have proved to be a layer of unwelcome misinformation.

[takrupp]

Depends on the recruiter and industry. Its pretty easy to figure out the jokers from the professionals (simply by asking "Who is the hiring manager?" will a lot of times show you who is who). No doubt the big firms are typically loaded with jokers.

[desigooner]

doubt anybody really cares .. for all the places i've interviewed, nobody has really touched upon the gpa .. at entry level positions, HR uses a GPA threshold in job postings but I guess that too is just a formality.

[mseebach]

You question is missing a very important piece of information: What makes you think that past illness is something that'll scare off employers? In other words, what happened, and how did that affect you?

[MurkyPast]

Cancer, basically.

[azim]

Keep that a secret unless you absolutely have to tell anyone. Insurance companies will impose a huge fee on any employer trying to hire you. This type of discrimination is one reason there are laws against what kinds of questions can and can't be asked in interviews.

[mseebach]

OK, that's hardly controversial. Why not just put it in there? Why would anyone think "he had cancer, he's unreliable"?

Why do you seems to think that makes your past murky? I mean, I don't envy you, it's a horrible disease, but it doesn't make your past murky.

[azim]

Do NOT mention cancer to any potential employer unless you have to. Cancer doesn't just "go away". Any survivor will be on drugs for years and the threat of relapse is always there. In the eyes of anyone who is providing you with health insurance, it immediately makes you a liability.

[mseebach]

No health insurance will cover anything for anyone who entered the scheme not disclosing a past treatment for cancer. Health insurance concerns do not go away (quite the opposite) by not disclosing cancer.

[nostrademons]

Disclose it when they ask for past medical history, then, not at a job interview. At that point, they've already hired you, and this becomes an annoying health insurance hassle and not a reason to not hire you. Why stack the deck against yourself?

[_delirium]

You have to disclose it at some point, but it might be more prudent to disclose it as part of the health-insurance registration process after being hired.

[crpatino]

Yes, but disclosing it in the resume/CV is way to early. You are basically asking potential employers to pass on you before you have a chance to show how valuable you are.

[fizx]

I can imagine a company that would say, "there's a chance of remission, therefore no-hire due to risk."

[MurkyPast]

Don't read too much into my name!

I don't think anyone will consider me unreliable, but for someone going through a stack of applications it's something that sticks out for the wrong reasons.

Plus, an application can be seen by a lot of people and you don't want to start a new job being THAT guy. I don't mind people knowing, but I like to have it on my terms if possible.

[Mz]

I would suggest you do your best to just gloss over it without lying. I spent a LOT of time very ill. I was too ill to work right after getting my Certificate in GIS. My resume had a 50% call back rate but I was doped to the gills on prescription medication and tanked in every interview. During that time, I was very upfront about my medical crisis. I didn't get a single job offer. I can't prove that was why, but I can't help but suspect it either. The first interview I went to where I did not mention my medical situation got me a job. I just told them I was a former homemaker going through a divorce and did not elaborate on any additional details concerning my lack of prior work experience.

Since you have a Masters, it is more recent and will generally be weighted more in their mind. Lots of folks screw off during college when they first leave home and don't make the best grades. I would be inclined to offer no explanation whatsoever for the poor grades the first time around. If your performance later was better, let that speak for itself -- unless, of course, you are asked point blank. Then be honest.

I think mentioning your medical problem up front is problematic because it implies that it is still a concern. If it is in your past, then leave it there. Honestly admitting to a medical crisis in an interview if asked about the grades seems to me less likely to be problematic. Just answer honestly but minimally. Talking at length about it suggests it still weighs heavily on your mind and I think this implies that it could still interfere with your ability to work. If that is not true, then don't give it a lot of emphasis. LOTS of people have medical conditions. It generally doesn't merit mentioning on the resume.

Good luck with this.