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by comstock 3062 days ago
iCloud backups can be decrypted by Apple, because they have the key the data is encrypted with serverside. Are you saying this data is different?
2 comments

iCloud backups cannot be decrypted by Apple. They use hardware security modules to encrypt that data and the keys are generated on-device and can't be read.
You’re just wrong, and spreading misinformation, please read the statements by Apple here:

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303

In particular a limited subset of data uses end-to-end encryption, none of which is super interesting:

These features and their data are transmitted and stored in iCloud using end-to-end encryption: iCloud Keychain (Includes all of your saved accounts and passwords) Payment information Wi-Fi network information Home data Siri information

If I’m going to be downvotes, could someone at least link to a document that shows how these statements are incorrect?
Downvotes are likely for “You’re just wrong, and spreading misinformation...”
I probably could have been more tactful. However the substance of my comment is correct, and while I believe Apple do great things in security and promoting privacy rights, they don’t provide end-to-end backups for most data via iCloud.

They don’t claim to, but the same misinformation gets spread every time this topic comes up on HN. If you want end-to-end encrypted cloud based backups of photos and other data on iOS you presently need to use a third party app.

Could you point to more detail on that? I know they use HSM for keychain escrow security. But the security white paper just says backup set and key are stored in the iCloud “account”, not keychain.

I know they said they could have accessed that San Bernardino terrorist’s iCloud backup if only they had one. Not sure if they’ve change the security architecture since then.

The Black Hat talk was really great: https://youtu.be/BLGFriOKz6U?t=6m55s (link is to SEP and on-device encryption, 22:30 is iCloud stuff)

> I know they said they could have accessed that San Bernardino terrorist’s iCloud backup if only they had one. Not sure if they’ve change the security architecture since then.

I actually think they have, the shooting was in 2015 and iOS 10 was released in 2016 and was first to have some of the features he talks about in the video.

Apple, very clearly states that only the following data is end-to-end encrypted:

iCloud Keychain Payment information Wi-Fi network information Home data Siri information

So everything else, pictures, notes etc. etc. part of the iCloud backup, are not. Please not spread misinformation about this.

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303

Chill. You’re extrapolating incorrectly from that brief support document. It doesn’t say that Apple can read the other encrypted stuff. The security whitepaper notes that things like iCloud backups are encrypted with keys that are stuffed into the keychain, which is then transmitted end to end encrypted.
Would you care to link to the section of the security white paper that says that? There’s a small subset of data that is encrypted end-to-end. Your photos, notes, most and most other information is not include in that.

It’s pretty obvious really, they need to know the key for encrypted at rest data in order to be able to reset your password if you desire. They absolutely do don’t currently offset end-to-end encryption on the majority of data in iCloud backups.

Yes. The Secure Enclave stores the data like a fingerprint, and that data - to the best of my knowledge - is not backed up to the cloud.
"Health data can be stored in iCloud. When configured for iCloud storage, Health data is synced between devices and secured by encryption that protects the data both in transit and at rest. Health data is only included in encrypted iTunes Backups. It is not included in either unencrypted iTunes backups or iCloud Backup."

https://www.apple.com/business/docs/iOS_Security_Guide.pdf -- pg. 29 under the Health Data subsection.

Edit: @bobwaycott points out the significance of this quote in the below child comment.

> Health data is only included in encrypted iTunes Backups. It is not included in either unencrypted iTunes backups or iCloud Backup.

Unless I’m misunderstanding you, your quote disagrees with your assertion. Health data is only included in encrypted iTunes backups. It is not included in unencrypted iTunes backups or in iCloud backups.

Of course, that’s just backups. It does say it can be configured to be stored and synced between devices via iCloud, where it is encrypted in transit and at rest. That appears to indicate it is stored pre-encrypted, and does not indicate there is any way to access it outside ones devices.

Not your misunderstanding. My misphrasing. That's what I was trying to say.
Oh okay. My bad. :)
Right, but we’re talking about medical data. Which in lieu of further information I assume would be backed up in the same way as iCloud data. Unless there are statements to the contrary?