[PandaChi]

I'm just sharing in here b/c I've always appreciated when others "peel back the curtain" to show the thinking behind decisions.

At the end of the day, it was obvious that we fucked up from the immediate feedback, but internally there was already a strong camp who felt this change was wrong, which greatly helped our ability to move quickly and plan out how we'd call this off (all the code was already in production behind feature flags).

On the data side, our churn ticked up, but was actually lower than we predicted and quickly returned to normal levels https://imgur.com/a/inFOE -- so the reversal was largely driven by the complaints of creators and patrons alike, and our own realization of how tone-deaf the decision was to begin with.

Speaking of which -- in my mind there are some obvious solutions to alleviating fees that didn't require moving the entire burden onto the goodwill of supporters. We're going to tackle a more comprehensive roadmap in the coming days and weeks (and talk to creators much more during this process), but if anyone is curious or wants to offer feedback, here are my thoughts:

* A big problem (that we arguably created ourselves) is a patron could pledge to a creator on the 25th of a month (granting a patron 5-6 days of access), get charged, and then get charged again on the 1st of the next month (granting the patron 30-31 days of patron-access). Pro-rating didn't seem like a right solution for the first charge since becoming a patron unlocked all the content immediately. So imo we should just (like a Netflix or any other subscription) have your first pledge grant you 30 days of access, whenever it was created -- and have this forever be your "anniversary date" of charge -- if you pledge Jan 25th, you'd be charged again Feb 25th.

* The question is around how we aggregate pledges if this patron pledges to another creator. If we say the patron pledged $5 to the 1st creator on the 25th of Jan, then pledged $5 to the second creator on the 10th of February, I'd want to charge the patron $10 on Feb 25, and in the receipt call out that you're paying for the 1st creator for the period of Feb 25-March 25, and for the 2nd creator from March 10-April 10 (because you'd have already paid for Feb 10-March 10 when you pledged to the 2nd creator on Feb 10). This way you're ALWAYS getting 30 days of access for every pledge you pay.

* Now that we can aggregate payments across multiple creators, I'd want to allow for the purchasing of multiple months/year at a time for a creator or creators, which further reduces fees -- additionally it allows creators to setup rewards (we're building this system out now) for when patrons have pledged a total of X amount or pledged for some time period.

* Finally, once we can pledge across multiple time periods, I'd love for cryptocurrency to be able to pay for patronage. Currently it's trivial for us to accept bitcoin via our Stripe integration, but we wouldn't be able to do recurring payments, and the ultimate thing that kills it for me is that creators wouldn't actually get bitcoin, but rather we'd have to convert it to fiat immediately. I'd rather patrons be able to purchase multiple months of patronage and creators have the option to convert to fiat immediately or hold actual bitcoin and participate in the wild ride that is cryptocurrency speculation :)

Ok that's all -- ideas are rough above, but that's what's on my mind lately -- happy holidays.

[prutschman]

As you say, pro-rating first charge has the content unlock problem and "anniversary date" of charge defeats aggregation.

TLDR: Aggregate on a single day, but pro-rate the second month, not the first, so there isn't a "runt" payment up-front.

I start a monthly $20/mo pledge on Feb 15th. I'm billed $20 on the Feb 15th, same day. This covers one month, Feb 15th - March 15th. Let's say the first of the month is aggregation day. Come March 1st I'm already paid up through the 15th, so I get billed for the pro-rated $10 for the second half of March. Come April 1st and all aggregation days thereafter I can now be billed on aggregation day for the full monthly charge.

[frandroid]

> TLDR: Aggregate on a single day, but pro-rate the second month, not the first, so there isn't a "runt" payment up-front.

That was my immediate thought reading this text. Of course it'll confuse some users, but since it's the fairest way, it should be the way to go. Also, just don't charge for the prorated period if the feed is going to be as big as the contribution (e.g. for a couple days for someone contributing $2 a month)

[rcthompson]

This is essentially the same feedback I left in the form: pro-rate the 2nd payment, and waive it entirely if it's too small to justify the fee. The payment processing confirmation email that Patreon sends out could put an asterisk next to a pro-rated pledge and explain what's going on down below for people who are paying close attention.

[Obi_Juan_Kenobi]

Pro-rating is fine, just make it a month+. So you support with one week left in the billing cycle, they get charged for 5 weeks. You could make it an option that creators set.

I'd really like to see a debit system: I could load up 6 months worth of pledges at once and incur only one fee (whether it's explicitly charged or done 'hidden', I don't care). Creators could choose how often to be paid, as well, so they control what kind of fees they incur as well.

[PandaChi]

Ah, if that wasn't clear from my post, I think debit/credit is absolutely interesting. Analogous to how Twitch effectively gives you more "bits" to send to streamers as you buy more in bulk.

Creators all run vastly different businesses so pro-rating is always a thought -- one thing it seems incompatible with is in the fulfillment of goods, where the creator takes on a burden of cost. It would be difficult to consider what the patron receives in return if they only pay out a pro-rated portion of a reward tier. Curious how that would play out in your scenario --

[zodPod]

You could make your own cryptocurrency. Just a PatronCoin or something that people just buy a bunch of and plop in an account and they get sent to creators who can exchange them for USD if they so choose or sell them to someone for more just like any other coin. This could be an option that provides maybe a fee-less transaction or something. Since the patrons will be buying them from you you could mark them up slightly or something along those lines then you make your money up front instead of waiting for fees to roll in?

[rexaliquid]

> A big problem (that we arguably created ourselves) is a patron could pledge to a creator on the 25th of a month (granting a patron 5-6 days of access), get charged, and then get charged again on the 1st of the next month (granting the patron 30-31 days of patron-access). Pro-rating didn't seem like a right solution for the first charge since becoming a patron unlocked all the content immediately. So imo we should just (like a Netflix or any other subscription) have your first pledge grant you 30 days of access, whenever it was created -- and have this forever be your "anniversary date" of charge -- if you pledge Jan 25th, you'd be charged again Feb 25th.

You could keep your charge date on the 1st of the month, and just not charge for that first month if they are charged up front. Let creators choose the length of their grace period: 3 days, 10 days, two weeks. Creators get paid, don't feel pressured to provide refunds, and patrons get a little sign-on discount.

[CamperBob2]

Creators get paid, don't feel pressured to provide refunds, and patrons get a little sign-on discount.

This seems like the key. Instead of making any decisions about payment scheduling options, design your system to allow for all of them within reason, and give the creators a menu.

If you don't offer your users enough options, you will eventually be out-competed by a patronage service that does. Hardwiring your system to a model that happens to work for you simply ensures that this will happen sooner rather than later.

[PandaChi]

This is an interesting thought -- one of the other things we see creators do is physical rewards, which means there is a cost to them in fulfilling their pledges. Although I could see compatibility to your suggestion still b/c you just wouldn't get the physical good twice, one good would cover the period of the next month + the original grace period.

[rcthompson]

I think one essential consideration that's been lost in the discussion is that Patreon can be used in many different ways. For some creators, it may be a periodic direct exchange of money for goods and services. Each month a patron pays $X and receives $X worth of either physical goods or some kind of service. For other creators, Patreon is a tip jar, where the primary product is released elsewhere for free, and fans can use Patreon to give recurring tips/donations, and through Patreon they at most receive some bonus rewards that are generally not themselves worth the $X they paid, since they are mainly paying in order to donate to a project that is external to Patreon. This latter mode of use is the one I, as a patron, am most involved with, since I donate to multiple web comics. I'm sure there are other modes of use as well that I haven't thought of or seen.

The reason this is important is because a one-size-fits-all solution may not be possible. For the case of physical rewards in return for pledges, charge-up-front is completely unnecessary. The creator can just say that the rewards will go out after they receive payment on the first of the month, so someone subscribing in the middle of the month receives nothing until the month ticks over. For the donation case, charge-up-front is useful, but not for the reason you might think. The main point is to prevent freeloaders who pledge, view the exclusive content, and then cancel without paying a cent. In this case, creators would probably be fine with pro-rating the first monthly payment after charge-up-front, or even just skipping it entirely. It's all donations anyway, so the point is not to extract maximum value from each patron, it's to make sure each patron is paying an amount that they are comfortable with, so that they will continue to pledge long-term.

My overall point is that the platform that is Patreon is abstract and flexible enough to support a number of different business models, which may have different needs with regard to charge-up-front and other features. And to get an idea of the full breadth of those possibilities, I think you just need to interview a lot of creators, and I think you'll find that the usage patterns are more varied than you expect. At the same time, I'm sure there's value for patrons in having things like charge-up-front work the same way across different creators' Patreon accounts, so that they know what to expect when pledging.

[rexaliquid]

I think there is a real benefit for creators of physical rewards when they aren't obligated to fulfill or refund pledges that come in at the very end of the month. They can begin and end shipping earlier, and apply late pledges to next month's rewards.

And as a patron, I appreciate receiving my December rewards near the end of December rather than mid-January.

[zodPod]

This doesn't seem like a great idea. What if I just joined for the first month, grabbed all of the content, then dropped out? I mean, I love this idea for the Creators that offer premium content that I want but don't want to pay for but it seems like they'd get ripped off a lot.

[rexaliquid]

The problem that charging up-front was created to address was people pledging money, reaping rewards, then dropping out before paying any money at all. With this system, if someone signs up for one month, then drops, the creator still gets paid for that month.

Worst case: a patron could game the system and only pay half as much as other patrons for the same content. That would involve pledging and canceling repeatedly every other month. That is not a likely scenario, and still infinitely better than the previous worst case: patrons paying $0 for that premium content.

[egypturnash]

One solution I’ve seen suggested: Pro-rate the SECOND transaction. The one on the first of the next month. Full charge for the first one.

You have ONE solo transaction, the rest are able to be bundled as normal, and the $1 pledges that make up half of my Patreon income (and, I’m extrapolating, a similar fraction of everyone's Patreon income) aren’t eaten up by that 35¢ fee.

[cesarb]

> A big problem (that we arguably created ourselves) is a patron could pledge to a creator on the 25th of a month (granting a patron 5-6 days of access), get charged, and then get charged again on the 1st of the next month (granting the patron 30-31 days of patron-access).

A simple solution to the "patron pledges near the end of the month" problem would be to have two batching dates, one at the end of the month and the other at the middle, and chose the one farthest from the current date, so the initial charge of a pledge would always be for at least a couple of weeks. Though personally, I would find that solution a bit annoying; having everything aggregate into a single charge per month is very convenient for patrons.