[germanier]

It's 8-9% of your income tax – so in reality maybe 2% of your income or less.

This tax is levied by the churches. You may be against the fact that they get this right because you support a more strict separation of church and state (which is not in the spirit of the German constitution) but this is hardly something the state is to blame for.

[reitzensteinm]

It's opt out, which is pretty evil. You can absolutely blame the state for that.

https://www.settle-in-berlin.com/stop-paying-german-church-t...

[germanier]

It is not opt-out. Everybody who pays has opted into the system (or in most cases their parents did[0]). Catholic foreigners might be surprised that the Catholic church is considered a single world-wide religious community. If they move to Germany they will be taxed even if they are not religious (because they haven't left – which is in some countries hard or impossible). This is a thing the Catholic church does to their members, not the German state.

[0]: It is not a regular contract but even those can bind you if your parents entered into them in your name.

[reitzensteinm]

You immigrate to Germany as an atheist with no affiliation to any church, but answer questions about your upbringing truthfully.

You're then taxed 2% of your gross income unless you pay a fee and visit multiple government departments. The money is distributed to private parties with little oversight on its spending. This is enforced by the same body and with the same penalties and rules as other forms of taxation.

I think at this point, we're arguing about the definitions of "opt out" and "enforced by the state". "Evil" is open to interpretation, but I stand by it.

https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/41305s/church_tax_...

[germanier]

It's exactly what I said above: The Roman Catholic church is a single world-wide entity and if you become member in one country your rights and duties carry over to Germany if you move here.

> but answer questions about your upbringing truthfully

Whether or not you answer questions truthfully has no impact on taxation. You might get around paying it if you lie but you are still liable for the tax.

> same penalties and rules as other forms of taxation

It is not, here is a decent publicly available primer: https://www.hrr-strafrecht.de/hrr/archiv/08-08/index.php?sz=... In short: The usual tax offences don't apply to church tax.

[reitzensteinm]

> Mit der Aufnahme der persönlichen Daten bei der Behörde werden die Betreffenden u.a. nach ihrem Religionsstatus gefragt. Die Frage der Verwaltungsbeamten lautet nicht etwa: „Sind Sie Mitglied der „Körperschaft des Öffentlichen Rechts Katholische Kirche Deutschland“? Das wäre korrekt. Auf diese Frage würden sie zutreffend mit Nein antworten, denn sie wurden in ihrem Heimatland getauft und nicht in Deutschland.

> Der Verwaltungsbeamte fragt stattdessen, in Unkenntnis der Sachlage, einfach: „Sind Sie katho-lisch?“, oder „Sind sie getauft?“ Die Betroffenen erkennen nicht die mit der Frage verbundene deutsch-katholische Problematik und antworten mit Ja, wenn sie jemals getauft wurden. Daraufhin wird vom Verwaltungsbeamten das entsprechende Konfessionsmerkmal in den Akten vermerkt. Diese Zuerkennung des Etiketts „kath.“ führt dazu, dass die Betroffenen von diesem Zeitpunkt an von der staatlichen Verwaltung als Mitglieder der „Körperschaft des öffentlichen Rechts Katholische Kirche Deutschland“ geführt werden – mit allen Konsequenzen.

https://hpd.de/node/14728

They ask if you're baptized, which can be true if you're an atheist. This saddles you with a tax obligation that you must then opt out of even though you're a member of no religion. The tax is collected by the state.

Ich denke, dass Sie nur streiten wollen. Es ist genug für mich.

[germanier]

Sorry, that page is a complete misinterpretation of the actual laws. This question is only of declaratory nature of already established facts and has no influence on the actual taxation status (if it ever becomes a court case that is thoroughly examined). You do not become a member of a religious entity by answering a question there (the state has no power at all to decide to admitting new members) – mistakes made while filling the form are always curable. It's the same thing as with marriage status on the same form: You do not simply become married by answering a question there wrongly nor can you claim tax benefits by doing so.

There is no difference between the "Körperschaft des Öffentlichen Rechts Katholische Kirche Deutschland" and the worldwide catholic church. That's a single entity.

(I say that as a non-religious person that never has been a member of a religious entity. If a community decides to tax its members they should be free to.)

[SyneRyder]

Ahh, I didn't realize it was a percentage of income tax. It was explained to me by Germans as tithing, according to the idea of donating 10% of your annual income to the church.

I'm not necessarily for or against it, and it does seem pragmatic for the government to automatically collect it on the church's behalf. The part that does seem strange to me is that you have to renounce your religion to opt out of the automatic deduction, but I understand it's a cultural difference. I'm more used to the idea of contributions as voluntary.

(I'm not German or religious, just an Australian who is a fan of Berlin & Germany and often considers moving there.)

[_s]

You don’t have to “renounce” your religion or anything to that affect, it’s a checkbox on your income tax / wage form where you choose whether you wish to pay it or not. From what I remember it amount to taking ~1% or so off your salary.

[germanier]

You actually have go through a formal renunciation process (which is done at a state authority but your church will get notified and will not be pleased). That checkbox doesn't actually do anything, it is just your declaration of the official religion status. Lying on tax forms is, well, not the best idea.

[_s]

Ah I see - I moved over as a foreigner (no previous religious affiliations) so that’s probably why I didn’t have to do anything beyond the taxation declaration.

[Xylakant]

You still have to officially renounce your church membership if you're member of either the catholic or protestant church. Otherwise the church may at some point come and recoup past taxes for up to 10 years.