[azernik]

Not just empathy - it's also a sense of drama that's required. A DM writes the story in (semi-)real-time, whereas in CRPGs the "DM" (the writers) have to predict player actions in advance and railroad the players a lot more in order to get a good story progression going.

[taneq]

This is the key insight which many new DMs seem to miss. D&D isn't a "game", it's a framework for telling an engaging story together.

[arkh]

It also goes both ways. The players have to engage and help build the story. I love the Feng Shui RPG for how they insist about the back and forth between player and DM. They also encourage the DM to pre-roll everything to make fights go smoother.

[tehwalrus]

This is much more explicit in a different, much simpler RPG called Fate, which is my new favourite.

GM'ing (Game, rather than Dungeon Master) is nearly as hard because of the improv story authorship, but the lack of rules-lawyering judgement that is required of you in a D&D game (even in a good edition like 5th, sadly) is not missed.

[StavrosK]

A friend of mine is a very good DM in D&D, wrote his own stories, world, etc, and we got a group of 5 people together and played two games before he had to leave, so we disbanded.

We very much liked the vibe, though, so I want to get the group together again. Is Fate a good game for inexperienced players (especially with an inexperienced DM)? If not, what would be a simple system to start with and play, but still enjoyable?

Fate Accelerated seems to be what I want (I'm not even sure what the differences are with Core, even having read the comparison), but the site doesn't really do a good job selling you the system.

EDIT: Man, this site is terrible. It links you to a store where I can't figure out where to buy Fate Core stories, it doesn't tell you what equipment you need, where to get it, jeez.

[tehwalrus]

I don't know much about the difference between Core and Accelerated, I just bought the Fate Core rule book (amazon?) and workout out of it. This is how I run pretty much all my games, buy the book and read it.

A new DM should (IMHO) try playing in a game of the specific system run by someone else first, even in a minimalist system like Fate.

The thing about Fate is that the jargon is generic fiction terms, rather than medieval fantasy or whatever. So you have to read the rules cover to cover before DMing, and make sure to jump forward and back to remind yourself of definitions etc. Once you get going, and are familiar with the two or three mechanics you can use, it's very liberating though!

If it's what I think it is, you should be able to start with Accelerated and then convert to Core if some things aren't working (i.e. it's too simple).

[StavrosK]

I see, thank you. Do you only need the book? The site mentions cards, dice, and various other things, but it doesn't tell you if you actually need those things.

> A new DM should (IMHO) try playing in a game of the specific system run by someone else first, even in a minimalist system like Fate.

That's going to be impossible, it's already hard to find D&D people in my city, something like Fate is just going to be nonexistent, unfortunately.

[tehwalrus]

I recommmend an online game then - Reddit "looking for group" is quite good as a hub.

You need "fudge dice", but these are mappable from D6s. I recommend getting the dice though, as this is th table:

1 => -1

2 => -1

3 => 0

4 => 0

5 => 1

6 => 1

So it can get pretty confusing to do in your head.

[groovy2shoes]

In my experience, the contents of the Accelerated Edition are nigh incomprehensible without a prior understanding of Core. I'd recommend that if you choose to play Accelerated, the GM be familiar with Core. It'll also be a lot easier to understand if you watch some "actual play" on YouTube beforehand.

Note that the text of both editions (as well the Fate Toolkit and some other goodies) is dual-licensed under CC-BY or OGL: http://www.faterpg.com/licensing/licensing-fate-cc-by/

The Fate SRD site is a third-party creation that presents the texts in a more convenient/organized way: https://fate-srd.com/

There's really no need to buy any books, but they're very reasonably-priced; the Core and Toolkit books are also very well-constructed and can withstand a good deal of usage. Though you can technically play with standard d6's, I'd recommend picking up some Fate (or Fudge) dice; I got a couple sets on Amazon, each set having enough dice for 3 players.

For stories/settings, there are loads of freely-available "Worlds of Adventure" on DriveThruRPG: http://www.drivethrurpg.com/browse/pub/2152/Evil-Hat-Product...

--

You might also like to check out Dungeon World if you haven't already: http://www.dungeon-world.com/

It similarly is CC-BY and has an "SRD" site: http://book.dwgazetteer.com/

IMO it's considerably easier to grok than Fate, especially for people new to RPGs, but YMMV. It also has a pretty expansive section of "rules" for the GM, which leaves room for little doubt about what the GM should be doing (and is, in large part, applicable to other games as well). It also uses standard d6's, so there's no need to invest in special dice (though the Fate dice sets aren't terribly expensive anyway).

I'll also plug Open Legend (I'm unaffiliated other than being a KS backer): http://www.openlegendrpg.com/

--

No matter what you decide to play, I highly recommend spending some time watching some "actual play" videos beforehand. I've found the Rollplay R&D series enjoyable: https://youtu.be/ooa-apRt2wk

[msabalau]

Interesting perspective. I'd take the opposite approach, recommending new game masters start with Fate Accelerated as being so affordable ($5 physical, pay what you want digital) and so short and saving Fate Core until you want to dive deeper and create a customized long term campaign. Watching a let's play video is a great recommendation!

The fundamental structure of Fate is very simple and straightforward. I'm working on a space opera variant (in the 27th century genetically engineered cosplayers, makers, scientists and pop culture enthusiasts set out to reconnect the lost civilizations of humanity) and am finding in playtests with strangers who have never played Fate that I can explain the core rules in 10 minutes or less and people can have a good time playing for 3 hours without any additional explanation.

I love Fate Core, but it's very wordy because it functions as a toolkit to adapt the game to any sort of setting imaginable. (and because it recapitulates a ton of stuff, rather than cross referencing)

[groovy2shoes]

Perhaps it's due to my own personal shortcomings, but I found FAE really difficult to wrap my head around until I'd read through Fate Core. I do like its brevity and simplicity, especially now that I have a good understanding of it, but I felt like some parts of it were unclear to me as a fledgling.

> I love Fate Core, but it's very wordy because it functions as a toolkit to adapt the game to any sort of setting imaginable.

I can see why so many people love it! I like it, though I must admit it isn't my favorite (I don't play a lot of pulpy games, and I've found Fate works really well for pulp, as designed to do, but not particularly well for other tones (though not particularly poorly, either)). I just finished up another reply to GP, wherein I mention that toolkit-esque quality. I don't think I truly understood Fate as a system until I internalized that it's not a game so much as a foundation and scaffold for creating games. Fate's immediate ancestor, Fudge by Steffan O'Sullivan, is very much in the same vein, but, I think, more obviously so (the Fudge book itself reads more like a list of possibilities than a list of rules!).

> I'm working on a space opera variant (in the 27th century genetically engineered cosplayers, makers, scientists and pop culture enthusiasts set out to reconnect the lost civilizations of humanity) …

That sounds fun! Is it available on the web somewhere for perusal?

I myself am working on a game, as well, though I opted to try my hand at designing a system "from scratch" (more of an amalgam of lots of ideas and mechanics that I like and that seem to work well together; exceedingly few of them are my original creations, but I have a ludography documenting and acknowledging my inspirations). Unfortunately, it's been on the backburner for a little over a year now, and the partially-written playtest document is out of date wrt my notes.

Perhaps we could talk nerdy game-design sometime :)

[StavrosK]

> In my experience, the contents of the Accelerated Edition are nigh incomprehensible without a prior understanding of Core.

Oh, really? That's too bad, accelerated seems to be a way to get up to speed with Fate in a very short time without knowing anything about the game, shame that that's not so much the case.

> The Fate SRD site is a third-party creation that presents the texts in a more convenient/organized way: https://fate-srd.com/

I browsed through that a bit and it seems to have the exact same text as the guide, so I'm a bit confused. Is it just the guide in HTML format?

> For stories/settings, there are loads of freely-available "Worlds of Adventure" on DriveThruRPG

That's a fantastic suggestion, thank you! I'll definitely check that out.

> IMO it's considerably easier to grok than Fate, especially for people new to RPGs

I've been playing D&D for a while, I just haven't DMed, so I'm not completely new to RPGs. I'll have a look at Dungeon World too, though, as it may fit our group better, thank you.

> I've found the Rollplay R&D series enjoyable

Good call, I'm going to watch a few to get a feel for how the game is played, thanks again.

[groovy2shoes]

> Oh, really? That's too bad, accelerated seems to be a way to get up to speed with Fate in a very short time without knowing anything about the game, shame that that's not so much the case.

You might be able to get by with just FAE and watching enough actual play to get a good grasp on how it works. For me, it felt like the FAE book sorta glossed over a lot of stuff that's more thoroughly explained in the Core book. That's just my experience, though; yours might well be different, of course!

> I browsed through that a bit and it seems to have the exact same text as the guide, so I'm a bit confused. Is it just the guide in HTML format?

Yup! It's exactly the same text, but some people prefer the organization and function to that of a book, so I figured I'd mention it :)

> That's a fantastic suggestion, thank you! I'll definitely check that out.

No problem! Fate—like its ancestor, Fudge—is so flexible and malleable that I've found it better to think of it as a framework/starting-point for creating a game rather than as a game in-and-of itself. Actually, it wasn't until I started thinking of it that way that I really felt like I understood the game. I think that if you take a look through some of those "Worlds of Adventure", you'll see it reflected therein: in tailoring the system to fit the setting, certain parts of the system are removed or restricted nearly as often as new parts are added.

> I've been playing D&D for a while, I just haven't DMed, so I'm not completely new to RPGs. I'll have a look at Dungeon World too, though, as it may fit our group better, thank you.

I wasn't sure how experienced your group is. Even if you decide not to play Dungeon World, I highly recommend reading over the GM chapters (The GM, First Session, Fronts, The World, Monsters, Equipment) and perhaps the appendices of the Dungeon World book (or "SRD" site as I linked before; it's the same text). The vast majority of the "rules", guidelines, and advice written there is generally applicable to GMing any sort of game. I've applied much of that stuff to D&D 5e and even GURPS games, and players have reacted positively. As an added bonus, I now spend far less time preparing for sessions (because I encourage and guide the players' own collaborative creativity so that we're largely creating the world and the plot on-the-fly, together as a group; they have more fun, sessions are railroad-free, and I have more freetime ;) ).

> Good call, I'm going to watch a few to get a feel for how the game is played, thanks again.

That group (modulo the guest player each season) has played a lot of different games, so if you're interested in checking out some new systems, I recommend looking through their videos :)

[msabalau]

I'll note that there are great, thriving G+ communities for both Fate Core and Fate Accelerated, with the designers engaging.

Also the Book of Hanz is a great free resource that highlights what makes Fate distinct, and offers good advice on running the game.

[digi_owl]

Kinda. I would say that story is the least important bit when in the moment as a player. It is once the session is over that the story emerges.

[MichaelGG]

Exactly. I played DnD, asynchronously, over the phone. Hours at a time with the DM, rarely a die rolled.

[Steko]

Eh, they don't have to (cf Eve), they just decided not to and so they've largely missed the chance for more interesting and sticky player driven story (cf Eve) by following EQ's model of "here's what you do next kids".

[PhasmaFelis]

Eve is kind of a different thing, I think. Hardly anyone is actually roleplaying in Eve, for one. For another, most tabletop RPGs give you a fighting chance at being the hero, whereas in Eve you're overwhelmingly likely to be Faceless Extra #54265. There's nothing wrong with that, necessarily, but it scratches a different itch than RPGs.