[patrickk]

Being mistrustful of copyright laws seems to be a hacker ethic. The price of an open web is to tolerate a certain amount of piracy. Sure, you could stamp out 99% of piracy on the web, by logging usage, throttling traffic, suing teenagers and deploying other heavy-handed tactics. But at what cost? I would argue that having an open web is better than trying to prune it to perfection. You will snuff out innovation and kill future Googles (do you think Google who have grown and thrived in AOL's walled garden?). Of couse, this isn't even factored into the equation when arguing against piracy because it's all 'what if'.

How many people here on HN have used pirated software to help build a web app? Quite a few I'd bet. If your fledging web app is a success, whose software are you gonna buy when you are successful? The one you 'test-drove' as a pirate of course. Remember Jobs and Woz used a 'blue box' to get free long distance calls on AT&T's network. Their next idea was the Apple I. Fast forward to the 2000's and the iPhone is making At&T billions. If this scene played out today, they would've probably been sued into oblivion or arrested by the FBI., and Apple would never have been.

Why do you think the tech industry and the web grew out of America and not some other wealthy country? It's because America tolerates a certain amount of rebellious, anti-authoritarian behavior (among other things).

Pg talkes about this much better than I can in his essay about the nature of hackers:

http://www.paulgraham.com/gba.html

"Why are programmers so violently opposed to these laws? If I were a legislator, I'd be interested in this mystery—for the same reason that, if I were a farmer and suddenly heard a lot of squawking coming from my hen house one night, I'd want to go out and investigate. Hackers are not stupid, and unanimity is very rare in this world. So if they're all squawking, perhaps there is something amiss.

Could it be that such laws, though intended to protect America, will actually harm it? Think about it."

I'm not pro-piracy per se, but I believe a certain amount has to be tolerated as the alternative is a police state on the web.

[rick888]

"How many people here on HN have used pirated software to help build a web app? Quite a few I'd bet. If your fledging web app is a success, whose software are you gonna buy when you are successful? The one you 'test-drove' as a pirate of course. "

Possibly. But there aren't really any real stats to back this up.

"Why do you think the tech industry and the web grew out of America and not some other wealthy country? It's because America tolerates a certain amount of rebellious, anti-authoritarian behavior (among other things)."

The GPL is becoming its own dictatorship and when people like Chris from thesis go against the ideals, he is treated like a criminal. The GPL is no different than proprietary software licenses. Companies and people involved in both want people to abide by their rules. However, only one seems to be supported here on HN and other communities. It's very hypocritical and it's one of the reasons why I can't take the community seriously.

"I'm not pro-piracy per se, but I believe a certain amount has to be tolerated as the alternative is a police state on the web."

This is a little extreme. The alternative is not a "police state". The alternative is respecting someone's rights, even if you don't agree with it (don't pirate something you don't want to pay for).

[patrickk]

The problem with clamping down on piracy is where do you draw the line? On one end of the continuum is the 'totally-open' model that has been there since the advent of the web, and the other end of the continuum is China, which employs an army of workers (http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/editorials/archives/2010/03/...) to censor content that the government deems 'inappropriate'. Starting to apply measures to clamp down on the web in any way is stepping onto a slippery slope. Look at the McCarthy communist witch hunts of the 1950s or the USA PATRIOT Act for examples of how power is abused in the name of protecting us from 'communists' and 'terrorists'. Who is to say that 'Pirates' won't the the next label to be vilified?

Granted, neither end of the continuum is ideal, but I know which side I'd rather be on. The web has been a magnificent haven for innvovation in the twenty or so years it's been with us, let's not do anything to f%%k it up (Butterfly Effect and all that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_effect)

[rick888]

"The problem with clamping down on piracy is where do you draw the line?"

Why should the GNU get any more attention or rights than anything else? If people can't respect my copyrighted work, I sure as hell won't respect GNU licensed software.

[neutronicus]

China may not be the best example. They pirate almost as an institutional policy.

[BrandonM]

> How many people here on HN have used pirated software to help build a web app?

I would expect this number to be close to 0. What does this even mean?

[patrickk]

A way of saving money. Thinking about this again, its probably extremely presumptuous of me to guess that a lot HN users use pirated software, just as it is presumptuous of you to say that the number is close to 0. There's no way of knowing. I doubt people would come out and admit it....time for a poll maybe?

I recall seeing a TechStars video a few moths back where one of the guys in the program all but admitted he was a software pirate.

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1524318

[noonespecial]

Me. I will.

My modus operati when I need an expensive piece of software is to pirate half a dozen different packages that claim to do what I want, evaluate them, then purchase the one that best does the job.

Wrong? Maybe. But there is a whole lot of hype when it comes to that sort of thing and I can't afford to weed it out at full price right now. Better (less crippled) evaluations (or evals at all) would help.

Sometimes I even find that what I thought I was trying to do was not what I wanted to do after all, but I usually end up buying something.

[rick888]

"I would expect this number to be close to 0. What does this even mean?"

What do you even need to pirate to make a web app?

Rails, php, apache, mysql are all free

[patrickk]

Since you asked (and even though I'll probably be downvoted for this but)...I virtualised OS X on vanilla PC hardware to save money (I'm a recent college grad), as OS X seems to be the OS of choice for Rails development. I'd rather do this and have more money saved up for living expenses when I do launch a product. Is this right? That's a matter of opinion. It's definitely a grey area. If I fail, Apple didn't lose a sale since I can't really afford a shiny new MacBook. If I succeed, everyone in the company will use Macs and therefore Apple, and I, win.

And YES I could just use Linux, before you ask, but I'm getting quite used to TextMate.

That's not to justify anything....but since you asked...

EDIT (can't reply to comment below directly): Yes, that's true. However you would still be in violation of Apple's EULA which states that you cannot run their OS on anything other than Apple hardware. So you are still being naughty by doing this ;-)

[rick888]

"And YES I could just use Linux, before you ask, but I'm getting quite used to TextMate."

So because you can't be bothered with using something that's free, you are going to disrespect apple's license. There are plenty of free text editors for Windows and Linux that supports most of not all of textmate's features.

Many companies decide to use GNU code in their apps. They don't get the same luxury as you. Many are sued in court and others are forced to release their own code.

[patrickk]

"So because you can't be bothered with using something that's free...."

You are making presumptions again here. I've tried Linux, I prefer OS X is all. As I've said already, OS X seems to be the best environment for Rails development. If I sell my startup for millions, Apple wins big through additional sales.

I'm going to bow gracefully out of this thread now, as I've said my piece. I'll leave you with a few words of wisdom from a guy a little bit richer and more successful than either of us:

"Although about 3 million computers get sold every year in China, people don't pay for the software. Someday they will, though," Gates told an audience at the University of Washington. "And as long as they're going to steal it, we want them to steal ours. They'll get sort of addicted, and then we'll somehow figure out how to collect sometime in the next decade." - Bill Gates

http://articles.latimes.com/2006/apr/09/business/fi-micropir...

[rick888]

"You are making presumptions again here. I've tried Linux, I prefer OS X is all. As I've said already, OS X seems to be the best environment for Rails development. If I sell my startup for millions, Apple wins big through additional sales."

How will they get additional sales if you "sell your startup for millions"?

"I'm going to bow gracefully out of this thread now, as I've said my piece. I'll leave you with a few words of wisdom from a guy a little bit richer and more successful than either of us:"

Are you from China? If not, you don't really have a point beyond that you like to use commercial software, not pay for it, and make excuses that one day when you make it big (which statistically speaking won't happen), you will decide to pay for them.

I wish I could use the same excuses about my credit card bills and business loans.

[nuxi]

...or you could buy OS X 10.6 for $29 if you really need it.

[DavidPP]

29$ is an upgrade license only.

[nuxi]

Yes, but it works as a standalone installation, you don't need to have 10.5 installed.

[patrickk]

'Are you a software pirate?' poll

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1532394