[Consultant32452]

In order to believe that you have to believe that literally 100% of tech hiring companies/managers are sexist. If even ONE was not, they'd wind up with all the women because they'd be willing to pay those women more money than every other company. I'm very open to the idea that there's sexism in tech, but the idea that literally 100% of everyone is sexist doesn't seem plausible.

[spaceseaman]

Huh?

It's not that the companies are sexist

Or the managers are sexist

Or the engineers are exist

Or you're sexist.

That's not what anyone has been saying this whole time - ever. You have completely misunderstood the point.

The system is sexist. Not the people in the system, but the system itself (similar arguments exist for police departments being racist - it's not the cops that are, but the system). In this case, the general consensus is that women are paid less than men in tech due to a variety of reasons.

A culture can also be sexist. While the people within it can harbor no ill will whatsoever, their behaviors and group dynamics can actively prevent a woman from being welcome. In this case, people are calling the tech "culture" sexist.

Here's a couple examples of a sexist culture I've seen in my own workplace. Note that none of the people here meant any harm, nor were there actions actively "sexist" in the common parlance, but they still did things that made people want to GTFO if they're a chick:

* I had a coworker who used to grill the woman on the team much more fiercely than the men. I never asked why this was - didn't have a great way to broach the topic. But it was always extremely obvious, and I have noticed it on HackerNews, Reddit, and pretty much every video game I've ever played. Men are very critical of women in jobs that men are already the predominant workers in. Female doctors and lawyers have had this issue for decades as well. It's not a sexist action. In my eyes it happens totally accidentally (My pet theory is that because we aren't used to seeing women in the field, we tend to be more involved when giving them criticism)

* My coworker had this anime poster in his cube with some half-naked bikini clad girl. Do I even have to mention why a girl might feel a little awkward here?

See how these things aren't actually bad in isolation? But over time, and in great numbers, they add up and make women feel like shit working at your company because they can never truly "fit in" with the guys. That's sexism in work culture and whether it's ever truly fixable is a great question.

I highly recommend you read some literature from across the aisle to become more familiar with the arguments you're facing, rather than the arguments you think you're facing. I highly recommend bell hooks' books on the subject. She's extremely clear and lucid and helped me grok a lot of the logic my first time around.

[Consultant32452]

First of all, the two things you listed are clearly sexist behaviors, even in isolation. Treating women differently than men, whether it's more harshly or with "kid gloves" is sexist behavior. Putting a pinup on the wall of your office is pretty inappropriate for a professional work environment and the reason it was allowed to stand is most likely sexism.

But again, it only takes one workplace, one manager that doesn't treat women more harshly and doesn't allow pinups or have these other sexist behaviors to foil the entire sexist system, because that one employer would get all of these great women who are just as productive for a lower price and would take over their market. It only takes two such employers in a market who are competing for those women to get women up to income parity with men.

I'm not making any arguments whatsoever about sexism in the workplace. I'm only talking about the wage gap. "The system" having these latent sexist rules and behaviors in place almost certainly drives women away. But that's a different problem than whether women engineers make the same amount of money as men for the same work.

[spaceseaman]

You seem to have missed my argument so I'll try and rephrase it.

> that one employer would get all of these great women who are just as productive for a lower price and would take over their market. It only takes two such employers in a market who are competing for those women to get women up to income parity with men.

Yet companies will always want to hire someone for the least possible amount they can - regardless of the manager's personal views.

Two potential employees walk in the door at your hypothetical perfect company. They are perfectly equivalent. One was originally paid $40,000 while the other was paid $55,000 at their previous position. They each want a 10% raise to come to your company. One is a woman, the other is male.

Now you end up paying the woman less than the male, purely because her previous position paid her less. And the cycle continues until eventually you get to some sexist manager back at her first company that thought she wasn't as skilled for some reason or another (apparently).

That's the point I'm trying to make. Your hypothetical situation would not be the panacea to these problems because companies don't offer salaries like that. You're also making the astronomically huge assumption that every person wants to change positions in the first place. Some people like the job they have and stay there for much longer than would be competitively optimal for them.

Systemic sexism is the sexism that manifests in these cycles.

[Consultant32452]

I get your argument entirely. Your argument doesn't hold water at all. Because it demands that every woman be more willing to work in a toxic, sexist work environment for lower money than a non-sexist work environment for more money. What are the odds of that exactly? If even a small percentage of women engineers are willing to move, then the one exception company will be loaded up with massively disproportionate amounts of women.

[Chris2048]

> and I have noticed it on HackerNews, Reddit, and pretty much every video game I've ever played

what do you mean?

> My coworker had this anime poster

And that's "culture"?

> because they can never truly "fit in" with the guys.

Your examples don't really back up this point.

[spaceseaman]

A) Women are overly criticized when they're doing anything that's a male-dominant activity. Videogames, Reddit, and HackerNews all have examples of this. Announce you're a woman, and you'll suddenly face more scrutiny for unknown reasons.

B) Yes. As it turns out, the behaviors we normalize in the workplace (like putting up scantily clad women) are part of a workplace culture.

They feel unwelcome, different, and unfairly questioned on the basis of being a woman and a woman alone. How do my examples not back up this point?

[Chris2048]

> How do my examples not back up this point?

You give an example of one guy with a posted, and one manager, and then conclude "culture" in general, and that they can "never truly fit in with the guys"; But why is this the case with the anime poster guy? How does the managers treatment of the employee relate to their relationship with the other guys on the team?

> the behaviors we normalize

This is along the lines of the "role model" argument; all must conform to prescribed behavior lest a slippery-slope epidemic of deviance should arise. Do all the cubicles have scantily clad women?

> Videogames, Reddit, and HackerNews all have examples of this

The first two are verymuchnot the workplace. Reddit has many different cultures, depending on which subreddit you are in.

You list HN too (which is maybe a little closer to the workplace), as in "Women are overly criticized on HN when they're doing anything that's a male-dominant activity" - I'm not sure I agree, can you give an example?