[krapp]

>I’ve lived in New York and Japan long enough to know that the best food in NYC is average in Japan.

It seems odd to deem the entire culinary culture of an international metropolis as being worth less than the mediocre fare of a country that puts corn and mayonnaise on pizza.

I'm not saying the best food in Japan isn't the best food in the world, but Japan's average is in no way better than the best in NYC. That's just silly.

[RealityNow]

As someone who's also lived in NYC and been to Japan extensively, Japan's fast food and mid-level cuisine is a hell of a lot tastier and healthier than America's. Wrote a bit about Japanese fast food in another comment here https://news.ycombinator.com/edit?id=15209105

That's a pretty bold and inaccurate brush you painted on Japanese cuisine. Yes western cuisine in Japan isn't that great, but who's eating western food in Japan? Funny you mention mayonnaise also because white Americans are stereotyped with eating mayonnaise sandwiches.

[krapp]

I'd agree with you comparing junk food to junk food, but the claim being contested here is that Japan's average is better than the best available food in New York, which is just an insult.

>Funny you mention mayonnaise also because white Americans are stereotyped with eating mayonnaise sandwiches.

I'm not even going to pretend that I didn't grow up eating fried spam sandwiches with mayonnaise and government cheese, on white bread no less. But that's neither here nor there.

[m_mueller]

If you read more favourably you can interpret OP as saying that the 'average' haute cuisine restaurant in Japan is better than the best in NYC. Which to me seems believable - at least the Michelin guide seems to somewhat agree. But I'm aware that I'm running into a no true scotsman fallacy there. Personally I don't have enough experience to say anything about haute cuisine, but I can say with certainty that at the low to mid end, Japan is in a completely different ballgame from the US.

In the US I essentially have a severe discoverability problem - there is great food, but you have to really hunt for it and do research to find it - sites like yelp are no help to me at all, a 5 star rating in the US translates to about a 2 star in Japan on tabelog, i.e. there's not enough resolution. Btw. in Europe the problem is usually the same, so that's not purely an American problem, more like Japan being an exception. There you can condidently walk into any place and get great food with about 70% success rate, and the other 30% is usually still good enough to not bother or even endanger you. A 3 star rating is standard, everything above promises greatness. Also, the accuracy with which Japanese can replicate (and often improve ok) Western food is surprising.

[nemo44x]

The mid-tier is far more consistent in Japan. The tradeoff is it mainly only includes Japanese food. Which is vast and amazing. But in my experience I'd say a "typical" Japanese restaurant is of higher quality than a "typical" Western restaurant. The tradeoff is that you have more variety and acceptance (and embrace) in the West.

Tokyo is better if you have 2 weeks. NYC is better if you have a year. At least today.

[m_mueller]

I don't think mid-tier only includes Japanese. Since at least the 80s it has become common for Japanese to train as chefs, pastry makers, bakers and cheese makers in Europe and NYC. They usually return and open up their own small restaurants in Japan. Tokyo is full of micro restaurants with 12-30 seats that have been started this way and their quality is very often top notch, so much that it is now often cheaper and better to eat certain dishes in Japab rather their original place. For certain things Tokyo has developed enough that Japanese can now learn it there just as well - Napoli Pizza or French pastry are examples. This goes all the way back to Tempura, a Portuguese import.

What is missing is the more exotic stuff. Latin American, Middle Eastern and African cuisines are underrepresented compared to Western megacities.

[nemo44x]

I've only spent limited time in Tokyo and was probably hunting for Japanese specific food so my observation is likely biased by that.

But yeah I think you're touching on my point which is there's just much more breadth in NYC.

[RealityNow]

I had thought you were saying that American food is better than Japanese food, my mistake. Yea as much as I love Japanese food, I wouldn't agree with the statement that NYC's best is superior to Japan's average.

[mikekchar]

I'm not quite sure what the OP meant, but I think that your rephrasing is not necessarily the same statement. It seems to me that "is average in Japan" is indicating that the eater would not consider it special. It doesn't imply that "average" food in Japan would be considered special either.

From my perspective, I think Japanese people would be impressed by the very, very top restaurants in NY. After all, Masaharu Morimoto (Iron Chef Japan -- as people were talking about Iron Chef...) was head chef at Nobu in Manhattan.

Having said that, restaurants in Japan (especially izakayas) have shockingly good food -- even (especially?) out in the countryside. It's pretty hard for me to think of a (non Michelin star) restaurant in a major North American city that has food as good as the local izakaya in my town (admittedly it is famous in the area). It would cost me a month's salary to eat the same quality of food in a fancy restaurant in the west. But there are factory workers who eat (and mostly drink...) there every day, without going broke.

I think that's probably true of a lot countries, though. I mean, is there a paella restaurant in Valencia that will not blow your mind? Or if you walk into any hole in the wall in Marseille, of course you are expecting one of the best seafood experiences of your life. Maltashen and sauerkraut in any random inn in Bavaria; Fish and chips in an authentic "chippy" on the coast of the UK. And let's face it: coal fired (don't hate me, gas lovers!) pizza shop in Manhattan.

I'll be honest, I don't think this is much to do with Japan. I think its more to do with the move towards glizty chain restaurants with mediocre food - dumbed down both for the audience and the preparers. To open a viable restaurant these days you need $2 million in capital and the risks are enormous. Especially in big centres like NY, London, etc, the costs of running a restaurant are so huge that you can't afford to run just a ridiculously good local pub, filled with local cuisine.

Why are there so many great izakayas and restaurants in Tokyo and (especially) Osaka, then? Because they are 3-4 generations old and the children of the owners are expected to (and groomed to) take over the shop. The shop is the entire life of a family for multiple generations -- no franchises, no sunny holidays in Okinawa, no merchandising, no fancy-pants buildings. Just making amazing yakitori (or whatever) every single day from the time you are 18 until you die. You are a fixture in your community and the people who live and work in that community love you. They visit you for dinner, for special occasions, or even just to chat. If the shop closes down, people practically have a funeral for it.

I think modern day western culture frowns on this kind of life. While I can understand that perspective, it's one the things I like about living in rural Japan. Like I said, though, I don't think it's just Japan. It exists everywhere in every culture -- it's just more obvious in some places than others.

[nihonde]

OP here. It’s funny that you mentioned Morimoto. I’ve been to two of his restaurants in NYC—Morimoto and the ramen one. They were both just OK in terms of food by Japanese standards, and the service was atrocious by Japanese standards. Our waiter at Morimoto complained to us that he had to leave so we should close out our bill. If something like this happened in any restaurant in Japan, it would be eye-popping, jaw-dropping embarrassing. It kind of proves my point that what New Yorkers fawn over as their best restaurants are, by Japanese standards, maybe a begrudging C+.

I’ve eaten in so many “Emperor has no clothes” michelin-starred restaurants at this point that I would pass for something truly brilliant but not hyped at all. For example, udon at Kendon in Fushimi Inari, or tanmen at New Tamaya in Nagoya, hanbagu from Tsumugi Kitchen in Nagoya, gyuniku from Kuroushi in Handa, or even Italian from Pepe Rosso in Sancha, Tokyo. These places will melt your brain and I doubt any of them rates above 4 on Tabelog.

In Japan, you have to go out of your way to eat bad food and get bad service. In New York, it’s an effort to find both good food and passing service, even in the Michelin ranks.

I’ll throw a bone to NYC: Marc Forgione has a damn good restaurant in Tribeca, and Sole di Capri (also Tribeca) is amazing and under the radar.

[nitrogen]

...corn and mayonnaise on pizza.

That sounds amazing, and very vaguely like Mexican food.

There's no reason to believe that we in America have the final word on what pizza ought to be.

[Udik]

> There's no reason to believe that we in America have the final word on what pizza ought to be.

You might have forgotten an /s there at the end. Regards from Italy.

[nitrogen]

I'm amazed that at least three people bothered to downvote this. Pizza prejudice.