[thrawy67]

From the article:

> However, unlike countries where similar schemes have been implemented, invasive bio-metric collection is being imposed as a condition for basic entitlements in India

Remember: India has a unique set of challenges to overcome if it has to survive and prosper as a nation. It is surrounded by not-so-amenable neighbors and with cross-border infiltration at a constant strategy used against India ("death by thousand cuts").[1]

And almost 20 million Bangladeshis have illegally crossed over from the eastern border [2] [3] and (unfortunately, reportedly getting Aadhar cards through whatever means, which defeats the purpose if it is true), for a country of a billion odd people at risk with such high uncertainty profile - the requirement to identify at least their own citizens vs the intruders/ offenders becomes a strategic and security action from the government perspective.

I think we would be in wrong to compare the "right to privacy" in this scenario to that of the more developed nations that are pretty much geographically blessed/ isolated, population wise less dense, religiously homogenous and technologically advanced as such that they can track covertly vis-a-vis getting biometric details directly. In fact, the Supreme Court of India has observed that [4] "Supreme Court asks if right to privacy is absolute?"

[1] https://www.pgurus.com/india-superpower-or-balkanized-war-zo... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_India#H... [3] http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Two-crore-Banglades... [4] http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/privacy-not-absolute-s...

[kchoudhu]

I keep hearing that 20 million number in every thread about Indian migration, and I can never find anything to back it up.

[thrawy67]

Please refer to the ToI article I cited in the reference. This figure is not pulled out of thin air, but neither it is 100% accurate.

From ToI article: "The government, citing inputs available with it , told the Rajya Sabha on Wednesday that there were around 2 crore Bangladeshi immigrants staying illegally in India.

If you were to believe the government estimates, you have to believe it. Even if it's off by 50%, you still have 10 million of them.

P.S: In 2004 >> the estimate was 12 million, according to the article.

[kchoudhu]

Starting with 12MM[1] in 2004, what you are effectively suggesting is that 1 in 15 Bangladeshis has left India in the last decade[2]. Come on: outside of Superpower 2030 memes, the grass isn't that green in India, and I'd like to think that the first million or Bangaldeshis crossing over would have sent home word that migration wasn't actually worth it. Why go to India and be poor in Calcutta when you can go to the Middle East and make (even factoring in broker fees) 2-3 orders more money for your family?

I'm willing to acknowledge that there have been some cross border shenanigans in the last fifty years, but the statistics trotted out by the Centre are transparently politically motivated, i.e. lies. What is more, these are stupid lies, relying on completely irrational behavior of potential migrants, who in my experience are some of the savviest agents in existence.

[1] 10 million of whom came over in 1971, making for an annual migration of ~50K between 1971 and 2004.

[2] By this measure, every family in Bangladesh would have someone who has left for India in the last decade. This is...not true?

[thrawy67]

> what you are effectively suggesting is that 1 in 15 Bangladeshis has left India in the last decade

I am not suggesting anything. I am only answering to your questioning of the source of the numbers.

As for the your other points, you can hold counter or conspiracy theories. I was only answering to your source claim. You may want to repudiate this in public domain if you feel GoI is mis-estimating or ToI is misreporting.

[wtmt]

> Remember: India has a unique set of challenges to overcome if it has to survive and prosper as a nation.

Every country has unique challenges, and India does too. But throwing technology, and that too unreliable technology with almost non-existent infrastructure (like connectivity in rural areas where the poor really have to have an Aadhaar for benefits), is a very naive way to handle it.

> And almost 20 million Bangladeshis have illegally crossed over from the eastern border [2] [3] and (unfortunately, reportedly getting Aadhar cards through whatever means,

Aadhaar is for any resident in India, and not just for citizens. Since Aadhaar is also provided through the "introducer" system without any documents, it's not difficult to get. Plus, UIDAI has blacklisted 34,000 enrollment agencies so far over the years. That's one rogue private agency every two hours, on average!

In the state of Assam (bordering Bangladesh), Aadhaar enrollment is not being done. The same is the case in a few other border states too.

Any assumption of Aadhaar identifying legal aliens vs. illegal aliens/non-citizens defies the very fundamental definition and implementation of Aadhaar. There is no way, currently, for Aadhaar to be used to identify citizens or even to be provided only to citizens!

> I think we would be in wrong to compare the "right to privacy" in this scenario to that of the more developed nations that are pretty much geographically blessed/ isolated, population wise less dense, religiously homogenous and technologically advanced as such that they can track covertly vis-a-vis getting biometric details directly.

I completely disagree. A country like India with lower awareness about privacy, identity theft, etc., actually needs privacy as a fundamental right more than other countries where such awareness is more. Now Indians are just being fooled and coerced into submission to get an Aadhaar number. Also, it's important to remember that privacy is not just about one person alone. Without privacy and safeguards, the very foundations of democracies will crumble when there can no longer be any kind of dissent or disagreement with respect to those in power (because they can use their means to find out who the dissenters are, where they go, who they communicate with, etc.).

Dismissing privacy as not a requirement is very dangerous for humans and societies. While it cannot be an absolute right, there certainly must be due process and safeguards against the state machinery misusing its powers against individual citizens. Currently India does not have any such safeguards.

Lastly, on your link on the Supreme Court asking if right to privacy is absolute, that case was heard and concluded last week. The court hasn't yet delivered its judgment. So taking piecemeal articles about the proceedings does not provide any meaningful way to understand what transpired.

One can only hope that the Supreme Court of India decides to declare privacy as a fundamental right subject to due process and considerations for different matters. If it doesn't declare so, the India of next century will likely be an authoritarian nation only because of Aadhaar and the lack of any consideration about privacy.

[thrawy67]

My responses to your points in order:

- I don't think you should dismiss Aadhar too quickly on technological grounds.

- You mis-represent what I said. I never said Aadhar is citizenship etc., only that biometrics help identify people within the border at any given time.

- I agree with your third point. I am also for not dismissing right to privacy. Only said the concept cannot be straight away can be an import from developed nations.

- Lastly, I never said SC delivered judgement and neither gave any piece meal information. I had clearly mentioned SC had only questioned and linked the complete article which also clearly says the judgement is not delivered yet.