[schwarrrtz]

Ok so I have some actual stats now:

> More than 45 per cent of Metro Vancouver residents are foreign born, according to the 2011 census. There are only three major cities on the globe that have a higher percentage of foreign-born residents.

> They are Dubai, Brussels and Toronto.

http://vancouversun.com/news/staff-blogs/vancouver-fourth-fo...

[deanCommie]

And yet all these people are united in their love for Vancouver, and Canada.

Canada draws strength from diversity.

I could see an American conservative looking at this list and shudder in fear from the "loss of white culture", and how immigrants couldn't possibly love their second country as much as native-borns.

Yet we do. And Vancouver is proof. Source: Am Immigrant Vancouverite (presently living in Europe)

* Obligatory footnote acknowledging our dark past with Japanese internment, and dark past and present with dealing with social problems that affect first nations communities disproportionately.

[robterrin]

I appreciate your view point and wish it were true, but Canada is way less diverse than the United States. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Canada)

Research shows that as diversity increases, so do political difficulties. Homogeneity is credited for a lot of policy successes in Scandinavia. Canada is simply another example of this, plus it is one of the earth's biggest petro-states.

It is less a cosmopolitain melting pot and more like Minnesota with the oil wealth of Texas. Vancouver and Toronto are admirable exceptions.

[mabbo]

You're not wrong. I grew up in the most Conservative area of Ontario (Ottawa Valley) and can't imagine ever going back. It's one of those places where people are always pointing out that "hey not everyone is racist around here", but everyone knows a few guys who after a couple beers will go on rants about 'sending them all back'.

I now live in the most diverse part of Toronto. My building probably has speakers of a least a dozen languages. I love it here.

[mabbo]

Unrelated to my other reply...

> plus it is one of the earth's biggest petro-states.

This is killing us economically. Ten years of Harper's policies pushing us harder into economic reliance on oil, now oil is way down in price and our economy is going with it.

This is why we need immigration and education: to build a stronger economy that isn't reliant on natural resources.

[hervature]

If you're going to argue against oil, at least be impartial. Justin Trudeau is essentially continuing Harper's efforts to increase oil production in the oilsands.

You're vision of "a stronger economy that isn't reliant on natural resources" is one of the main points of the Alberta Heritage Fund [0]. Even Albertans recognize that you can't rely on natural resources forever. However, it is naive to think you can't use them to help you change the future. In terms of education, the article states that Alberta as a sovereign state would be in the top 5 in science education on the PISA international test.

Also, "now oil is way down in price and our economy is going with it" is completely fallacious as the only reason why our economy could fall is because our oil industry was propping it up. Here is a nice graphic to show the parity between the two [1].

At the end of the day, it takes time to convert your entire country to clean energy sources. Even in Canada where we have 2/3 already renewable, the amount of time it would take to make that 100% is going to take decades. Until then, my main argument for the oilsands is that I'd rather have people earning honest wages in a country where the companies are held liable to environmental destruction instead of the Middle East.

[0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberta_Heritage_Savings_Trust... [1] - http://news.ubc.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/diagram770.jpg

[ChrisjayHenn]

I think it's easier to be laid-back about immigration here because of how diffusely populated Canada is. I think for the 'cultural mosaic' model to work the different cultures need to feel they have the space to be themselves as well as have edges and margins where they can interact. That is probably a bit easier in a country with the geographic footprint of Canada.

[DarkKomunalec]

> 'cultural mosaic' model

Heh. It used to be sold as the 'melting pot'.

[willhslade]

In the US, sure. In Canada, we have differing labels because it's a different model.

[pm90]

If you're comparing to the US, the US is still sparsely populated by any means. Sure, the metro areas might be crowded. But I've never hear "lack of space" as the reason for denying immigration.

[to_bpr]

I keep reading this "Canada draws strength from diversity" line but I've never seen anything to substantiate it. Could you please give it a shot?

Because I'm an immigrant living in Toronto. The diversity here, while "nice", seems to be a significant weakness if anything - a highly fractured, multi-cultural society simply tolerating one another's existence with no real united identity, goals or vision for Canada's future.

[a-priori]

Canada has never had a united identity. It has always been fractured between English Canada and French Canada. That's an unstable arrangement, with two opposing poles of cultural power, and it's actually remarkable we have never gone to civil war over that divide.

Transitioning from a bi-cultural society to a multi-cultural society is actually an improvement, because it reduces the power of English and French cultures to simply strong minorities among many. It's resulted in a balance-of-power arrangement, where neither has any hope any longer of dominating the whole of Canada.

It means it's unlikely that either English Canada or French Canada will try to go to civil war with the other, because they have nothing to gain and everything to lose. That's a remarkable achievement all on its own.

[fleitz]

The Conservative party of Canada has huge immigrant outreach and is very multicultural because it can't get elected any other way, similarly if your party doesn't work in Quebec you aren't getting elected. The multicultural vibe of Canada really kills the us vs them mentality in politics

[DarkKomunalec]

So increasing diversity limits voting options and political power for the previous population? Wouldn't they see that as a disadvantage?

[surge]

Are you confusing "white" culture, for western culture, and yes, there are aspects of western culture that should not be sacrificed in the name of multiculturalism, like free speech, pluralism, religious freedom, etc. I don't think anyone has issues with immigration as long as the immigrant adopts the culture here, and does not try to make their new place be more like back home and imposes their old culture on the new area to in an effort to respect their heritage, when the cultural values back home are half the reason things were so bad there. America is made up of immigrants of multiple races, but at some point we all agreed to adopt the values of the nation we lived in, the issue comes with those that want to impose their conservative or traditional values from back home on the society they moved to, including their prejudices, views on the value of women, etc. They come here for all the great opportunities, but they don't want to give up the things and attitudes that are incompatible with our cultural values or possibly part of the problems they had back home to begin with.

NYC and Toronto are success stories in multiculturalism, where people come, become educated, and integrate into the local culture, but ethnic/cultural enclaves that have been forming in cities overseas are not (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9r6ZCwQxZk).

[durge]

It's not quite that rosy on the guns and butter issues there. I moved to Van for grad school from the Midwest looking for opportunity, worked for two years after my degree and then moved back stateside. One makes so little money there, housing is really steep, and it's hard to responsibly start a family. But you do get to feel good about that other stuff.

[eli_gottlieb]

>One makes so little money there, housing is really steep, and it's hard to responsibly start a family.

How's that different from your average major metro area in the USA? Or, for that matter, anywhere else in the First World right now?

[DarkKomunalec]

3rd most unaffordable in the world: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/demographia-i...

[durge]

I can't really speak from experience on the Canadian mid-major metros, as I only experienced 'big' Vancouver. But there is a bevy of American cities where you can actually save and have little ones (Minneapolis, Cincinnati, Sun Belt, Des Moines). Maybe it's like that in Ontario? Anyways, looking over the next twenty years of my life, the opportunity cost of living in Vancouver was huge, and not just because of the exchange rate.

[DarkKomunalec]

> immigrants couldn't possibly love their second country as much as native-borns.

I think they're more worried that immigrants won't love whites as much as other whites do.

[biggerbistro]

And why wouldn't they? Would you move to China if you didn't like Chinese people? Yet I've noticed this phenomenon recently, in which new Canadians think it is appropriate to disparage the old ones despite their choice to move to Canada. Racism never ceases to amaze me.

[to_bpr]

Disparaging certain demographics, namely white people and men, is trendy these days and there's no shortage of self-loathing people in Canada with an apparent eagerness to provide a platform to enable and facilitate that/those trend(s).

[pm90]

I understand your logic, but I don't believe its an accurate paradigm. Most immigrants don't migrate for cultural reasons, its more for economic ones. Most of my immigrant friends wouldn't give a shit what color the majority people were in the country they moved to as long as it was 1) Tolerant and 2) Provided better economic opportunities and quality of life.

I'm not saying non-whites hate the whites or anything. I'm suggesting that's not the primary motivation for immigrants. For refugees... they literally just want to escape their hometown to escape death, so I think survival comes before anything else really.

[to_bpr]

The fact that the majority of refugees arriving to Europe these days seem to be pushing to get to Germany, Britain or Scandanavia despite being able to "survive" in Turkey, Greece or Italy seems to refute your point a little.

[pm90]

I don't see that it does, really. If Turkey gave citizenship to these refugees, and just allowed them to start their lives, they would perhaps have continued to stay there. Maybe I should have used a better word. They left their homeland to escape terrible conditions, but their conditions in camps in Turkey or Greece aren't very good either. They are trying to get back a semblance of normal life, which Germany seems to promise them.

[biggerbistro]

I suspect a not-insignificant portion of the refugee population are actually economic migrants using the situation to their advantage.

[biggerbistro]

Isn't it a little ridiculous not to expect immigrants to have favorable opinions of the host population? What you say is probably true for a great portion of immigrants in general but the tolerance must extend both ways. Being disliked by your guests is a pretty disheartening experience and likely a cause of some of the backlash we've been seeing lately.