[ajross]

Sort of exactly my point: ARM SoCs mate a proprietary CPU implementation from an existing ecosystem with a bunch of proprietary IP blocks from that same ecosystem (that in practice tend to make up the bulk of the silicon area). Our "open" hardware excitement is limited to replacing the former while putting our heads in the sand about the latter, which IMHO is more important if you want to actually get any benefit (beyond "I made a CPU!" of course).

ARM and x86 may be proprietary designs, but their behavior is excruciatingly well specified and understood. If you want high quality open hardware, someone needs to start replacing the rather less well-specified/understood implementations of DRAM and I2C and SPI and USB and...

[monocasa]

Parts of DRAM, USB, and GPIO controllers at least are probably going to stay closed for the short term. The analog properties of their PHYs are per process hard blocks typically that the fabs are super into keeping locked up.

I2C and SPI are pretty trivial though, I've written HDL for both of those. SPI is literally just a shift register and an chip enable signal.

[ajross]

USB has an actual PHY hardware spec for exactly that reason. And I'm not sure I buy your GPIO argument, not a hardware engineer but I've known several who all swear never to use fab-supplied GPIO blocks.

It may well be that DRAM's analog requirements are fab-specific (though I'd be a little surprised if it were that bad: these are full swing classic bus signals), but nonetheless most of the complexity in these controllers is in the logic side: clocking, refresh, bank mapping, ECC, etc... That's all stuff we could (and should) be writing in open source HDL.

[monocasa]

> USB has an actual PHY hardware spec for exactly that reason. And I'm not sure I buy your GPIO argument, not a hardware engineer but I've known several who all swear never to use fab-supplied GPIO blocks.

It's not "what does the the external spec require", it's "how do we achieve that at a given fab process". Ie. how do you achieve specific slew rate etc. on a given process?

> It may well be that DRAM's analog requirements are fab-specific (though I'd be a little surprised if it were that bad: these are full swing classic bus signals), but nonetheless most of the complexity in these controllers is in the logic side: clocking, refresh, bank mapping, ECC, etc... That's all stuff we could (and should) be writing in open source HDL.

There's plenty of open source implementations for the digital side of things. On this very github project:

https://github.com/SpinalHDL/VexRiscv/blob/master/src/main/s...

[ajross]

You're overselling the complexity here. Yes: mating analog specifications to line drivers/receivers requires per-process design. And at the very top end of achievable technology (USB 3.1, PCIe 4, DDR4...) these designs are likely to be NDA-level IP you have to get from the fab or its partners. But come on, "slew rate" matching is a matter of looking up some capacitance and I/D curves and plugging them into a SPICE model. Literally everyone does this in school.

But that's not remotely where we are with RISC-V designs in the market, where we'd be very happy to get a LPDDR2 controller and a USB Hi-Speed link with an open interface that doesn't require junky proprietary drivers or crazy workarounds for undocumented hardware bugs.

(Also FWIW: I can't find a DRAM controller implementation in that VexRisc tree. That line you point to looks maybe like an abstraction layer for plugging one in that's already on the FPGA?)

[monocasa]

> You're overselling the complexity here. Yes: mating analog specifications to line drivers/receivers requires per-process design. And at the very top end of achievable technology (USB 3.1, PCIe 4, DDR4...) these designs are likely to be NDA-level IP you have to get from the fab or its partners. But come on, "slew rate" matching is a matter of looking up some capacitance and I/D curves and plugging them into a SPICE model. Literally everyone does this in school.

The spice model is closed and behind NDA. Seriously, can you point me to spice models of even ancient process nodes that are still manufactured? Let's say TSMC 0.13umG just to pick one out of the blue.

> But that's not remotely where we are with RISC-V designs in the market, where we'd be very happy to get a LPDDR2 controller and a USB Hi-Speed link with an open interface that doesn't require junky proprietary drivers or crazy workarounds for undocumented hardware bugs.

Here's a USB2 controller that's existed for more than 15 years on opencores:

https://opencores.org/project,usb

> (Also FWIW: I can't find a DRAM controller implementation in that VexRisc tree. That line you point to looks maybe like an abstraction layer for plugging one in that's already on the FPGA?)

It's imported from the spinal standard library. It's underlying implementation is here:

https://github.com/SpinalHDL/SpinalHDL/tree/master/lib/src/m...

[ajross]

You've lost me on what you're arguing. I'm saying "we want to spend more time integrating open hardware designs into RISC-V devices and less time making new CPU cores in our fun new HDLs".

And you're saying "we can't" because... why? I know that junk is there on OpenCores too. I've looked at it. I've synthesized some of it. No one uses it on silicon. That's the part we need to fix. And it's not because of SPICE parameters being behind an NDA.

There's no reason you can't plug a USB state machine into a per-process line driver, that's the way it works everywhere (even on FPGAs). Synopsys et. al. ship their verilog with the logic carefully isolated from the semiconductor process dependency (for obvious reasons). Don't tell me that open hardware device vendors can't do the same thing. They just haven't, largely because existing open source people are spending their time making CPU cores instead of integrating a SoC (and software stack) made up of open designs that can be plugged into fab-supplied analog blocks in an obvious way.

[finfet1]

Perhaps a solution would be if the verilog cpu project provided a few specific model numbers for each part (obviously, choosing ones that are commonly available and lesser cost), so that public contributors can work towards a common implementation for said part.

[monocasa]

I mean, the issue is that you're not going to find the specifications for the PHY stuff anywhere. There's no model numbers to clone. It's literally things like how do you etch out capacitors in the fab's process? What's the electrical properties of their different dopants? There's not really any models to clone without cloning the whole fab.

Our best option IMO is to wait until Moore's law hits more of a standstill, when fabs become more of a commodity and they're less secretive about the underlying process rules.

[finfet1]

We're not talking about achieving on-die chip speeds at the picosecond range here. We're talking about interface specifications between the CPU and the DRAM, USB, etc -- these things can be designed for based on specs, and you don't need a trise/tfall equal to 10% of your FO4 inverter delay to achieve this. These are board level specifications which can be achieved with medium tier off the shelf components. And if they can't be achieved at the latest DDRX specs, then just design for one generation behind to at least get something going in the community.