[ZenoArrow]

> "I like the idea of a united Europe"

I like the idea of greater cooperation across Europe, but I'm not willing to unite under the EU, at least not in its current form. Unity is not universally good, it's important to know what you're uniting under.

With that in mind, what do you want to gain from a united Europe?

[renaudg]

The unthinkability of war between its members (a millenial problem, solved for 70 years now), for starters ?

Addressing inherently regional/global issues like environmental ones at the appropriate level ?

Having the clout of a 300 million people market in trade negotiations with China/India/the US ?

Gigantic economies of scale through common legislative work and a single set of consumer/safety regulations for companies to follow across a huge addressable market ?

"greater (bilateral) cooperation" just won't give you that. Creating a higher entity is the only way that makes sense past a certain level of complexity.

The "not in its current form" argument in EU discussions is a classic one (a similar rhetorical device to "I'm not racist but..")

The truth is that while no organisation is perfect (is Westminster perfect?), and with the assumption (a difficult one to make these days) that you are actually aware of how the EU works, there are a very few other forms than the current one the EU could have ended up in.

[ZenoArrow]

> "The unthinkability of war between its members"

A problem solved by NATO and the OSCE. The EU is far from the only organisation with widespread European membership. Here are three of the most important non-EU organisations that affect policy in Europe:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Europe

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organization_for_Security_an...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO

It's worth remembering that the EU only really found it's current form in 1992. There were earlier agreements that formed the basis of the EU, but it changed considerably after the Maastricht Treaty.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maastricht_Treaty

> "The "not in its current form" argument in EU discussions is a classic one (a similar rhetorical device to "I'm not racist but..")"

Only for the lazy. I simply don't agree with how the EU is run. I'd much rather stay as a member of the Council of Europe than any group that dictates fiscal policy. You can see how well that's worked out for the Greeks, burdened with debts they can't pay for the benefit of European bankers (the bailouts were a bait and switch move, the Greeks got a small percentage of the total funds). The EU will become increasingly focused around the Eurozone, and policies that suit the Eurozone. We may lose some financial benefits from leaving the EU now, but it'd be far harder to leave as time went on, and more power was centralised in Brussels.

[allendoerfer]

After WWI, there was the League of Nations, to avoid the next war. WWII helped to realize, that stronger ties were needed.

Council of Europe with Ukraine and Russia in it. Are you joking? Ask someone from Ukraine or the Baltics, how they feel about the safety of territorial integrity.

I would say, better be safe than sorry in this case.

[ZenoArrow]

Please read what I said again in relation to war in the region...

"A problem solved by NATO and the OSCE."

Did I mention the Council of Europe in relation to war? No I did not.

[allendoerfer]

One could argue, that fear of NATO made the Ukrainian war happen in the first place. Anyway, point still stands: We need more international unity, not less, since there is war in Europe, and the EU is arguably the closest tie between countries.

[ZenoArrow]

> "One could argue, that fear of NATO made the Ukrainian war happen in the first place."

One could also argue fear of Ukraine joining the EU made the Ukrainian war happen in the first place.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93European_Union...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93European_Union...

"Russian President Vladimir Putin warned that members of the Customs Union of Belarus, Kazakhstan and Russia may impose what he called protective measures in the event of trade liberalization between Ukraine and the EU. The EU condemned Russia's threats, calling them unacceptable. Ukrainian Prime Minister Mykola Azarov urged Russia "to accept the reality of Ukraine signing the EU agreement" and condemned any artificial barriers as pointless."

"After the economic part of the Ukraine–European Union Association Agreement was signed on 27 June 2014 (by the new President Petro Poroshenko) Russian President Vladimir Putin stated that making Ukraine choose between Russia and the EU would split the country in two."

Note that the military action taken by Russia started only a few months later, in November 2014:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_military_intervention_...