[Robotbeat]

Everything in life is a willpower issue. If we could just increase willpower /exactly/ when it's needed, we could solve virtually every problem not limited by fundamental physics.

The problem is if we could just increase will power for everyone, we'd cause more problems than we'd solve. Too much "will power" means literally insane people. You'll have people exercising until they die of exhaustion/stroke/etc. You'll generate anorexics. You have psychopaths since willpower overwhelms every other consideration. People pursuing self-destructive dead ends all over the place because they no longer listen to their bodies, their peers, or just plain common sense to STOP.

We cannot just increase will power. The problem is with the other side: the body thinks it's starving, so is triggering extremely loud survival instincts that overwhelm will power. We don't want to make will power so great that it always overcomes survival instincts (like the need for sleep, pain in a tooth or a sliver, etc... all these are things we want people to still respond to so they don't kill themselves), we want to tamp down this false survival instinct of hunger to that of a normal person.

[ksk]

>We don't want to make will power so great that it always overcomes survival instincts (like the need for sleep, pain in a tooth or a sliver, etc... all these are things we want people to still respond to so they don't kill themselves), we want to tamp down this false survival instinct of hunger to that of a normal person.

I don't understand your argument. How does the OP just talking about increasing willpower, equate to advocating for people to ignore their survival instincts? Or do you consider any act of increasing willpower something that will eventually lead to someone ignoring their own life?

But ignoring all that, people want practical weight-loss programs that work in the real world, not just on paper. Personally, I don't see the point in arguing about methodology when one can simply 'practice what they preach' and show that it works. People have been losing excess fat in various ways without killing themselves, so it seems like there are multiple solutions to this problem.

[Robotbeat]

I consider hunger a survival instinct. People with obesity, especially those who have actively tried to lose weight but failed, have a stronger hunger drive than normals as their body fights back against caloric restriction attempts.

If you just increased willpower to overcome this much stronger hunger drive, you'll have increased will power beyond any kind of equilibrium with the other (weaker) survival instincts, thus increasing the probability of some unintended problem.

The solution isn't to just increase willpower, as will power isn't lacking and increasing it more could cause problems. The solution is to address the real issue: the body's exaggerated response (i.e. releasing hormones which cause the sensation of hunger even when the individual is overweight) to fighting caloric restriction.

[NikolaeVarius]

I could literally make the exact same argument about getting exercise.

Getting exercise sucks, it makes you exhausted, it hurts because you're literally harming your body in the short term so that it heals stronger, and it requires will power to go out and do every day and do it. Your body is doing all it can to prevent unnecessary expenditure of energy.

Is the solution to this just to make some crazy ass pill that solves all these issues? Or is it to just deal with it and exercise?

[philipkglass]

Since the pill that replicates all the benefits of exercise does not exist, you need to exercise to get the benefits of exercise. The benefits of exercise are worth the personal costs.

If and when someone does invent a crazy ass pill that replicates all the benefits of exercise without the effort, I'll gladly embrace it. The self-discipline-and-enduring-suffering part of exercise is just a means to an end, not a virtue in itself.

[ksk]

Are you advocating that people are victims of their baser drives?

[Robotbeat]

I'm saying "will power" is not a magic solution.

Even if you could magically increase willpower way beyond the usual to counter the body's exaggerated hunger drive (that science says you experience during AND especially /after/ losing weight when you're obese), it'd almost certainly cause other problems.

You've got to address the root cause, which is the body's ill-adjusted response to maintaining a negative caloric balance for weight loss. Obese people who try to lose weight have just as much will power as a normal person.

[moron4hire]

There's also a lot of evidence that whatever "will-power" is, it requires a rested, well-fed mind. Dieting fundamentally decreases your ability to have "will-power". So perhaps what we call "will-power" is only a correlative trait--not a causative one--for people who lose weight. People lucky enought to have bodies that can easily switch to consuming fat instead of storing fat will probably find themselves with a lot more energy throughout the day to be able to think clearly, exercise, and make good eating decisions, but then call their good fortune "will-power" as a result.