[igk]

I 'm not sure if they are talking about "dualstudium", but I think this is a thing which needs to be advanced. There should be a separation between "skill education"(learning things for a job) and "human education" (learning things to become a better human/just for understanding). The latter we already enforce with 9 year Schulpflicht (which one could debate about prolonging) and then leave to the individual.

University education should not be or promise jobs, it should be about understanding certain fields on the deep level and being confronted with the bleeding edge of knowledge. Right now we are conflating the two, meaning we have a large number of students wasting their time in classrooms when for their goal they should either be getting deeper, tougher confrontation with the subject (if they want to do research/understand deeply) or practical "on the job" education (if they want to get a job). BWL is the worst culprit of this as far as my friends who studied it describe it.

[weinzierl]

> I 'm not sure if they are talking about "dualstudium",

I agree with what you wrote but the OP is not about Dualstudium. The "dual educational" the article refers to, is about non-univerity tertiary education (Duale Ausbildung). The dual part is the fact that this happens in a company and a (usually state run) school. [1]

As an example: If you want to work as a plumber in Germany you have to get a certificate. The only way to get the certificate is to participate in the dual educational system.

For a plumber that means to find an employer that is willing to give them a three and half year apprenticeship contract. The apprentice will work only three or four days, the other days they have to attend school. The exact details depend on the trade, some have a three work week, one school week schedule, but the general idea is that work and school education happen at the same time.

Not all trades follow this model but if they do it's mandatory. Also the newly certified plumber is only allowed to do plumbing jobs. To be allowed to install a heating system for example they have to make a run trough the dual system again, now with the HVAC guild. Just to install a new heating system you need at least a HVAC company, a plumber, an electrician and a mason. The HVAC guy won't touch any pipes, cables or bricks because he is not allowed to by law and discouraged by his guild. Same for the plumber, electrician and mason.

What the article misses to mention is that the system makes every task that falls in a regulated area very expensive. As a consequence of this it also leads to a lot of illicit work.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_education_system

[JepZ]

You are right and I think half of the people here did not understand the difference between 'Duales Studium' and 'Duale Ausbildung'.

But on the other hand, I don't quite get what the Universities have to do with the dual education System?!? I mean, as far as I know, Universities are specialized in higher education.

[weinzierl]

The headline is misleading and I believe the article is not clear about the role of the universities.

[HarryHirsch]

It's called "skilled trade" for a reason. When the apprentice plumber has passed his apprenticeship everyone knows that this fellow knows his stuff and can follow developments in his field. If you want plumbing done, get a plumber, if you want electric get an electrician. If you want a trained monkey, go to America.

[circlefavshape]

Do they have apprenticeships for monkeys in America?

[mcguire]

Some days, I suspect we are participating in one.

[dsfyu404ed]

That sounds incompatible with American values on several levels. Locking people into careers and preventing other skilled people from doing similar jobs because they haven't bought into a union or become part of a special group is the source of most things Americans hate about similar systems where we have them.

[_nx010_]

Incompatible with American values?...

A cursory search on Google shows that in America, if you want to be an HVAC tech or a plumber, you basically have to take the same steps: get a high school diploma, then find a formal apprenticeship or a vocational program, then get licensed and get a certificate. The whole process takes years too. It's basically the same.

And as an American consumer it's not like you get a random handyman from the street to do the work, is it? You almost always go with one of these certified guys. And similar to the OP, there is a bunch of "illicit" work here too. Like my mechanic once insisted on coming to my home after hours to fix my car (easy fix), presumably so he can avoid paying shop fees.

[omaranto]

Just because it's standard procedure in America doesn't mean it can't also be against "American values".

[zaph0d_]

The text said that they begin in the age of 15 or 16, so the "duale Ausbildung" system is meant by that, because "Dualstudenten" are usually 17 or 18 when they start. The "Dualstudium" combines the practical "Ausbildung" with an applied science bachelors degree like CS, EE, mechanical engineering and so on, so it double the stress, but you'll also get a lot of work experience, a bachelors degree and an apprenticeship diploma. Also you will get paid.

[FabHK]

At least historically, the understanding is that universities prepare for an academic career, while apprenticeship ("Ausbildung"), dual education ("das duale System"), and – since the 1970's – universities of applied sciences ("Fachhochschulen") prepare for the job.

[sjg007]

Well math, stats and engineering prepare you well for a career. CS algorithms and data structures does excluding the practical programming bit... in English you read and write a lot, critical thinking... all of these are critical skills for jobs.

[igk]

Yes and no. Best example I know:you can teach engineering as a very applied trade (basically, here's how to select a technique known to work and here is how to tune it), which is how they tend to do it at the Fachhochschulen, or you can teach it as "here's how previously we stole all the cool ideas from physics and maths and what new techniques we built, you'll hopefully be able to find out how to build on it", which is more common on universities.

Having worked with both, the difference is noticeable. The FH guys are actually usually much better engineers in "standard" problems, cleaner code etc, but if you have to drop down abstraction levels and make your own techniques, the university guys tend to fare better(already filtering out incompetent people). It's a different education, with different goals. One is more general and aims to deepen your general understanding, Hoping you'll be able to derive the techniques. The other focuses more on practical application that will get you a job now and hope you'll learn the deep understanding with time. But there is not as much connection between what is taught as one might think. Likewise, ask any professional trader what they think of academic finance.

My tl,dr is that I think university or something should have the explicit goal of teaching "useless" knowledge with the aim of giving deep understanding. Then everyone who just wants a job can avoid that, and we don't have to water down the curriculum

[usrusr]

Applied vs theoretical. Since the applied kind of knowledge won't stop pouring down on you as long as you stay part of the active workforce I honestly think that it would be an absolute shame to not "waste" the education years on theoreticals. It's quite literally the last chance in most persons' lifes.

[HarryHirsch]

I disagree. The practical knowledge rains down on you every working day. But for laying the foundation you need to take time off and do nothing but reading (didn't Knuth say something similar once). So better get that out of the way early.

[circlefavshape]

Erm ... you're actually agreeing with what the post you're replying to says

[HarryHirsch]

Must finish mug of morning coffee before posting. Comprehension suffers badly otherwise.

[weinzierl]

> My tl,dr is that I think university or something should have the explicit goal of teaching "useless" knowledge with the aim of giving deep understanding.

If you'd ask me which knowledge I found useless as a student and which I find useless now, after several years of work experience, the answers would be pretty different. Not only because I changed but because the world changed. I think "useless" or useful knowledge is not the problem we should worry most - I think teaching education is where the distinction should be made.

In my opinion there should be research universities which teach knowledge from the cutting-edge of research (maybe at the expense of didactic quality). On the other hand there should be something (akin to the fictional FH you described) which focuses on training on the job with professors that are not only qualified in their field of expertise but also good teachers. I don't see the FH, or "University of Applied Sciences" like they tend to call themselves nowadays, to fulfill that role in any way, because the professors there are neither researchers nor teachers. (I have a degree from a FH and one from a regular German university, so I know both systems)

[sjg007]

Well academic research can be a very practical field too. You have to have some intellectual tools (mathematical reasoning, statistical reasoning), specific techniques, proofs etc.. which you apply to your problem domain. The most theoretical of which would be pure math or pure models of systems.

Innovation derives from working from basic principles and logical reasoning about a problem. Understanding the math is seen as important than just using it. You don't have to pursue pure math e.g. proofs but you should understand the usefulness and limitations of the mathematical tools you work with.

Those tools have utility in solving problems as we progress as a society. Otherwise you are in some sense operating blindly.

So education should be obtaining these intellectual tools to reason and think critically about things concerning humanity. Moreover one should seek a diversity of tools and ways of thinking. I feel like this is a huge driver of creativity.

For finance, the number one hedge fund was founded and run by a mathematician. Black-scholes, game theory... Signal processing... it's unfair to not get this exposure!

[arethuza]

Great comment - I think a lot of people go to universities expecting vocational training and are deeply disappointed by all the "useless" stuff that is actually completely irrelevant for a lot of jobs.

Edit: I'm from the UK which is probably closer to the US system than the German one.