[simon83]

And here I am, living in Germany and getting told that asking for 60,000€ p.a. as a software engineer with 11 years working experience is waaay too much for most companies. Only the big ones like Bosch, Porsche, Daimler (all non-IT companies) and a few other exceptions will pay enough for a sustainable life.

At the same time we hear about regular reports about "shortage of skilled professionals" here in Germany, it's laughable, it's because no one wants to pay enough money, because cheap students are good enough. And I have to clean up their mess...

[hocuspocus]

Where in Germany? My company pays around 80k total for lead/principal roles with your experience, in Berlin. And I'm sure you can make quite a bit more in Munich, Stuttgart, Frankfurt, ...

Also, keep in mind, while $250k in the Bay area is indeed more than nice, there are quite a few people making half of that if you don't count the monopoly money in their total comp. In many ways you live a better life with 60k in Germany than with 120k there.

[simon83]

I'm in Stuttgart. My biggest handicap is probably that I never studied anything. As a nerd I totally lost interest in school, and so I started to work rather early instead of studying.

And there is no denying that the quality of life is much better here in Germany than in the US (unless you make shittons of money of course).

[geodel]

But Germany has great public transport, excellent beers, free/close to free healthcare and liberal icon like Angela Merkel. That is all good hackers/developers care about.

[simon83]

That is all true, but the thing is that most of the developers I know are single and have lots of time on their hands. Some of them literally play computer games only in their spare time. I decided I want to have kids and so I have a family now, and I can tell you having even just 1 kid is expensive enough. Me and my wife we both work full time, only to have enough spare money at the end of the month to put aside, just so we can believe this money will be worth something in 30 years or so (I don't believe it). And we are not living an extraordinary/luxury life. I'm not materialistic, and I only care about money because I need it to keep me and my family alive. Germany is quite expensive in that regard compared to the average salary.

[mlent]

What area of software development are you in?

[simon83]

I'm currently working as a web developer, with a focus on frontend development.

[Rezo]

You should put some way of contacting you in your HN profile, or message me if you're open to remote work.

[emperorcezar]

There is a lot to be said for a safety net. A lot of times it does mean that you don't need as much money to survive in the long run.

[polskibus]

Are you talking about a major hub like Berlin or some other area? Pretty sure you can get 60k euros in Berlin.

[jk2323]

This is 2800 € net per month.

A refugee on welfare would get approximately 400 per adult plus 300 per kid plus rent paid (and free insurance). For a family of four this is 1400 Euro. Let's assume 1000 for rent in a city. This is 2400 so basically the same that you have. For not working.

Germany has Syrian refuges that have 4 wifes and 23 kids. You do the math! http://www.rhein-zeitung.de/region/lokales/westerwald_artike...

[simon83]

Personally I don't mind at all that the refugees get this money. I'm glad they get some help, I just hope they make something out of it (which is not so easy in a rather unwelcoming society).

I keep hearing people say "they" take away "our" money, which is just a ridiculously tiny amount in the grand scheme of things. You never had the control where the money goes to to begin with. "Your" money could as well be spent to bail out yet another bank, or whatever useless for profit institution humanity has came up with.

[trampi]

Hi Simon, thank you for that reflected statement! May I ask you in which city you live?

I am a developer living in Munich. I started my first full time job in last november with 49k€ entry-level salary (Christmas bonus included). I have got a masters degree in computer science. My project lead (who has not studied) told me, that the requirement for having studied started being a thing in the last years - when he began, nobody asked for that.

[simon83]

I currently live in Stuttgart, which is apparently slightly less expensive than Munich. I don't think a 49k€ entry level salary for someone with a masters is good. It's probably enough to afford the basic necessities and a small apartment in Munich, but that's it. But then again, most companies seem to think this is good enough, it's so surreal.

I've been told many times in the past that a degree is not that important, what counts is experience. I haven't studied due to my laziness in my youth, but my experience looking for a job has shown me that a degree does matter. Some companies won't even invite you for an interview if you don't have a degree. I feel like I'd have a much better chance to negotiate a better salary with a masters or even bachelors degree.

[TurboHaskal]

49k is quite good. I know of engineers that started out with 35k. Masters with 40k.

[simon83]

That's exactly my point, these salary ranges are "normal" here. For the average developer with little responsibilities in life this may be more than enough. And so goes my theory, but please don't quote me on that: IT workers are undervalued because most of them only need a computer, internet access, a comfortable bed and fast food to live a happy life. And so they just accept whatever they are offered, because they don't need that much money. And why would you pay someone a lot of money to do something he/she loves doing anyway? We are being exploited in my opinion. CS is no simple stuff and not everyone is capable of working in that field.