[nxsynonym]

There's a weird mentality in America (assuming that's where you are located) that average is bad.

Average is just average. There's no reason you need to be a multi-millionaire with 6 houses, 12 cars, and endless spending cash.

I also think that there should be more emphasis on separating personal/professional ambition from how much you earn. When people talk about career goals, they usually only mean "money making goals".

There's nothing wrong with working just enough to survive and finding satisfaction outside of spending money on crap you don't need. There's nothing "lazy" about making a living (even if its bare minimum to pay the essential bills).

What's the point in working 80 hour weeks for a set number of years, spending money excessively, and having a heart attack by age 50 from being over worked? Personally I'd rather be dead broke and happy then over worked and stressed about un-important crap.

That's not to say you shouldn't work hard towards your goals, they should just be defined out side of "make more money so I can impress my friends with a new car"

[exelius]

The problem is that if you're 30 and "average" in America, you're probably barely scraping by, don't own a house, and have a mountain of debt. It's not a great life if you have to worry whether you're going to make rent on a monthly basis.

If you have a job that makes enough to afford the trappings of a comfortable life (place to live, enough left over to save, emergency account for if you get sick/injured, invest in retirement, etc.) and work 40 hours a week, you're in the minority.

Outside of HN, people aren't working 80 hour weeks because they're trying to be a millionaire, they're doing it because they need to pay rent. Anyone reading this site is almost by definition in the top 10%.

[klez]

> Anyone reading this site is almost by definition in the top 10%

That's a pretty wide assumption to make. I'm a young (30) dev, I make just north of 20K euros per year (before taxes), I rent an apartment with my girlfriend and two other people. I wouldn't consider myself poor, but certainly not "top 10%".

You make it sound like only venture capitalists and successful startup founders read this site.

[nxsynonym]

The issue is circular, in this regard. You should't HAVE to work two jobs or perform above average just to make ends meet.

FWIW, I'm 25, working in non-tech at the moment, making 32k a year in the one of the more expensive cities on the east coast. I'm trying to relocate to a cheaper part of the country but between mandatory student loan payments, high rent and general cost of living I can either choose to build an emergency fund, or dump it all on the cost of relocating.

My bigger point is that this attitude of workaholism is way too prevalent in American culture. Cost of living and wage decline has followed the trend of "down on their luck millionaires" who think everyone else is just lazy.

When minimum wage lands you in deep poverty the system is broken.

[scottLobster]

Speaking for myself, it's not about impressing others. Fun exercise: Find the word "average" in these comments (or any synonym) and replace it with "fragile". That's the issue.

"Essential bills" as you put them can skyrocket at a moment's notice no matter how frugal you are. I watched my mom battle cancer for 10 years before she finally succumbed to it, and if my dad had had a lesser job it would have bankrupted us as a family. Furthermore I've seen said medical bankruptcy in some close friends, and that's just one of many things that can and do inevitably go wrong in life even for the best people. "Average" can turn to "destitute" in a matter of weeks.

My goal is for my fiancée and I to have enough in the bank for our future family to afford the best available solution to any problem we might have. Car gets totaled? I want to walk into a Carmax and come out with a $10-15,000 replacement the same day. We have a kid with special needs? I want to be able to afford the best teachers and schools there are. I get in an accident and have to go on half-pay for a few months? I want rent/mortage, groceries and other necessities taken care of. I'd also like to be able to afford 10+ years of medical care in my senior years and not risk going bankrupt.

Granted I'm only 29 and healthy with a good job, and my fiancée's working on getting her career started so we've got plenty of time and opportunity; but damn straight I'm going for millions, and I'll happily work 60+ hour weeks for decades to get there if that's what it takes. I'm not above taking vacations or breaks or weekends off, and I don't kill myself. I eat well, sleep well, exercise, have date night, etc. But I don't play nearly as many video games as younger me thought I would. :) It's worth it, and I sure as hell won't be squandering the effort on multiple houses or fancy cars.

[roma1n]

Aaaaand that's when socialized health-care, good public shcools and good public transportation saves the day. Come to France!

[nxsynonym]

Ideally you should be able to live life without these worries on a singular, average paying job - no?

These events could happen to everyone - why is it required to go "above and beyond" to have some sort of sense of security in life?

[scottLobster]

Ideally, but we don't live in an ideal world. Stuff costs money, and the best stuff costs more money. That holds true no matter what percentage the taxpayers might cover. Baseline coverage for anything is great until you're hit by something that's not covered. Maybe your college financial aid doesn't cover that extra year that you want to take, or your condition requires experimental surgery that basic insurance won't cover, or your homeowners' insurance doesn't cover fires caused by Galaxy Note 7s because of some bullshit fine print. :) Or you didn't understand your mortgage terms and get screwed out of your house entirely unless you've got some massive financial cushion.

On the public side, I look at our (US) government's spending habits and they're clearly unsustainable long term. I know national debt isn't like personal debt, but at some point there has to be a reckoning, or more likely a series of smaller but no less meaningful reckonings. Combined with advances in technology threatening to take away even white collar jobs (although as an engineer mine's probably safe), one way or another we're in for some very turbulent times. I want my family insulated from that. I want to be the rich guy who gets hit by the great depression... and is moderately less rich. :)

I'm already lucky, if I wanted to I could take my foot off the gas at my current job and probably not have to worry about 80% of life's financial problems, but I know eventually one of the 20% is going to come along and wreck my shit. So I work to close that gap.

In short: Figuratively speaking I'm not satisfied with my own emergency shelter, I want my own protective carrier battlegroup. No matter where I live or what I do, that kind of protection takes money.

[piva00]

So basically you are overworking yourself in the richest country of the world because the society you live in is structured in such a way that every single person is responsible for their own safety regarding emergencies that are completely unpredictable and could be alleviated with a more collectivist worldview where everyone could contribute a bit more to help those in need.

I don't mind my taxes paying for my friend who's on his 4th month of sick leave because of a sudden and deep depression, it's a very small cost for me so society in general can be healthier.

[ShannonAlther]

Hyperbole about stress-induced medical problems aside, money is quantifiably good. A man who makes 10x your salary can take 10x more vacations to the south of France, justify taking more time off work to spend with his family, doesn't have to worry as much about monetary concerns like loan payments or health problems, and so on. It's not just "impressing your friends", having a nice car can be a joy in and of itself, but I'm always weirded out by people who say they don't want social status.

[skynode]

I don't understand it either. I can't begin to list the comforts and options that come from being rich. Guess we all know. There's really no alternate reality where it's much better to be average and have little or no options.

I usually take the view that I'd listen more to you if, to prove your point more empirically, you got reasonably rich and then just decided to give away all your wealth and resign to some lonely cabin in Maine.

[jdietrich]

>I can't begin to list the comforts and options that come from being rich.

I can't either, but for a rather different reason. What exactly does being rich get you these days?

You get to sit in a slightly nicer seat on an aeroplane. You get to drive a car that has vastly more power than any sane person needs, rather than one that merely has substantially more power than any sane person needs. You get to own a house with a lot of surplus rooms to fill up with stuff that has no discernible impact on your standard of living.

Rich people don't get access to a super-duper internet, they don't get to watch better movies or listen to better music, they don't really get to make better friends. Most material comforts are perfectly accessible to someone on an ordinary middle-class income.

Never having to work again is cool, but most people are unlikely to reach that point. Your probability of accumulating that level of wealth before retirement age is remote, the hedonic treadmill is a powerful trap and most people find meaning and value in work anyway.

Being average isn't better than being rich, but it isn't much worse either, at least not in a country with a sane government. The stuff that makes a real difference is mostly a matter of public policy - Germans and Scandinavians don't live in fear of a medical bankruptcy or an at-will dismissal, nor do they desperately want to own a home to escape shady landlords and rising rents.

[ShannonAlther]

But wealthy people DO have access to better internet (speed and quantity) and have more leisure time to enjoy media. Also you can do other neat things, like pay for your childrens' education. THAT is a list that goes on for a while.

And the statistically average American is barely treading water. I realize that the average European is better off, but that's not relevant to America right now.

[jdietrich]

Again, it's mostly public policy. I can get unmetered 100Mb/s broadband for $42 a month, because the broadband market in my country is competitive and well-regulated. Paying for your childrens' education is a completely alien concept in many countries, because public primary and secondary education is uniformly excellent and university is state-funded for all.

Financially, the average European is a fair bit worse off than the average American. Gross median household incomes in Germany are about 25% lower than in the US; America has the sixth highest median household income in the world. GDP per capita tells a similar story. This simply isn't a question of money.

Americans don't need to get rich, they need to vote for someone who gives a damn.

[jriot]

People with wealth don't have more leisure time because from my experience all their time is spent working to ensure their wealth doesn't dissipate. Furthermore, once you reach a level a certain level of wealth then you want more power.

[hinkley]

Some of the people I knew growing up would call me rich, but nobody I know now would.

I can tell you that there's a huge breakpoint once you are in a situation where you are both 'living below your means' and have a nest egg that is measured fractions of a year of living expenses. It's a safety net. It lets you take risks that you otherwise wouldn't feel safe/sane entertaining.

If you really hate your job, you can job hunt and not be petrified that people at work will find out. You can take a risk on a startup that is doing something you consider good (ethically) or awesome (technologically) and not worry as much about them being out of business in eight months.

You can push back on demands to compromise your ideals. What's the worse they can do, fire you? Your explanation for why you were let go writes itself. You can work reasonable hours. You can spend some of that time doing volunteer work or other social activities that may actually improve your employment options in the future (virtuous cycle, pun intended).

And, you can afford to participate in the technology treadmill that most likely underlies your job skills if you hang out on HN.

[edit] Stresses outside of work show up in how you interact with people. I was much more agreeable at work when I knew my rent was paid even if payroll screwed up my paycheck. (And I was much more agreeable at work once I started taking care of my health, too, which was easier when I had more leisure time).

[csa]

First, let me say that I sort of agree with you. I say "sort of", because I think that the way you define rich only sounds like slightly higher up the chain of upper middle class to me. If that's the case, then I completely agree.

That said, I personally define rich as being part of the capital class rather than the worker class. My perspective (note that some of these are a bit hand-wavy since the levels of money needed sometimes differ significantly and sometimes the lines are not clearly delineated):

- You don't sit on a commercial airplane. You own your own plane or take charters. Slightly lower on the totem pole is taking commuter jets (something akin to semi-charters).

- You typically/often don't drive a car for the purpose of transportation. Someone drives you. That said, you may own one or more cars. Some of these cars may not even be street legal, but they can be delivered to the track for times that you want to take them out for a spin.

- You do, in fact, listen to better music than most people. This might be in the form of live music. It might be in the form of a very well-designed high end music system in a listening room -- music you thought you knew well will sound completely different.

- You don't actually need to use the internet -- for the most part, you have people do those things for you. That said, if you need fast internet, you will probably live in an area that can accommodate your needs (depending on where you live in the US, access to fast internet is not a given even if you have the money).

- Any "work" that is done is done because it is an interesting problem to work on. Other than that, there is very real unofficial work of building and maintaining social capital. Sometimes this is the ugly kind of social climbing that is dramatized on TV. Other (often?) times, it is cultivating relationships and having experiences with people you like somewhere between a little and a lot (more time with the latter). Since money and (to a lesser extent) time are not limiting factors, incredible experiences can be had.

- Most things that people would consider "chores" are not a necessary part of your everyday life. No grocery shopping. No carpooling. No cooking. No restricted schedule due to child care (nanny almost always available).

Those a just a few things that I think are or can be different/better for people in the capital class. Some things that are worse is that often times folks born into the capital class have existential crises. Avoiding this type of crisis comes down to good parenting (and perhaps good parenting advisers and nannies).

Just my 2 cents...

[jdietrich]

Being able to afford air travel makes a huge difference to your life. Irish people used to hold wakes for emigrants, because they were effectively saying goodbye forever. Until a few decades ago, the only chance most working people had of travelling internationally was in the armed forces.

How big is the difference between economy, business class and a private jet? You're a bit more comfortable for a few hours, but that's about it. The life-changing part of air travel has been democratised; the expensive add-ons are mostly status signals.

The difference between owning a car and not owning a car is huge; the difference between driving yourself and being driven is a nicety that even a lot of billionaires forgo. Motor racing isn't a particularly expensive hobby if you're willing to do it in a used Neon rather than a race-prepped Porsche.

I trained as an audio engineer and I can tell you that there's nothing in music that you'll hear on a $50,000 custom hifi system that you won't also hear on a $300 pair of Sennheiser or AKG headphones.

I think there's a general principle here, underpinned by economies of scale. If you make a million of just about anything, you can make them really good and really cheap. There's just not a lot of extra value that can be added above and beyond that sweet spot.

When our economy was mostly driven by labour, the rich got access to an array of luxuries that were completely unaffordable to the majority. Now that the economy is driven mostly by innovation and automation, you don't have to be that far above the poverty line to reap most of the benefits of our civilization.

[csa]

It seems like your thesis has changed slightly from "being rich doesn't get you much" to "the jump from limited means to middle class is a bigger QoL jump than middle class to extremely rich". Again, I think we agree on the latter point, although it may be a faulty comparison. My post was largely about things that being extremely rich gets a person, and I think that this can have tremendous value depending on priorities (e.g., valuing time or experiences very highly).

Some specific additional responses:

- private jet: With a private jet, time from car door to taxiing the runway adds about 5-10 extra minutes total on each side of the trip. On a commercial jet, that's more like 30-120 minutes extra on each side depending on the airport.

- audio: My most memorable listening experience was on a $100k+ system with B&W Nautilus speakers. I don't remember all of the peripherals, so I can't cost it out exactly. Anyway, we played some CDs (heathens!) of some baroque performances that I thought I knew well. When we started listening, I heard things that I had never heard before. It completely blew my mind. The music sounded totally different, and the subtle expressions of the performers via their instruments were far more obvious. I've listened to the same music on $300 Sennheiser headphones (which I love and recommend) -- totally not the same.

In general, extremely rich people are able to buy A LOT of time and very high quality experiences. Is this as much of a quality of life jump from upper middle class as a jump from limited means to middle class? I think it's a faulty comparison as the needs and wants (both practical and aspirational) of each of these starting groups is very different.

That said, ymmv.

[nazgul17]

A person that thinks compromising his/her own time is not worth the money is already making a choice by not working as hard as you would. You should not discard that. And such a person will not choose to work hard for money in the first place, so you are asking for impossible (or very unlikely) data points.

Also, why would someone give up money they already had? They either worked hard for it or obtained it by some luck. In both cases, throwing it away is not earning that person more time for hobbies or to spend with family.

[mangodrunk]

Well, you can be rich and depressed. It doesn't necessarily buy happiness though it is a good foundation to work on other problems.

It takes work and skill to get rich, and the reward may not be worth it to some, or it may be antithetical to their goals.

[nazgul17]

A man earning 10x as much as I do cannot take 10x more holidays because days are still made of 24 hours and weeks of 7 days. Even more so if said man is working longer hours for the extra money.

No one is saying being richer is bad. Just that for many people the compromise is not worth it.

[throwawaycopy]

Social status in my circle has more to do with your songwriting chops and finger picking skills than driving a German luxury car.

Townes Van Zandt is one of our heroes and he died basically broke and unknown.

Maybe your problem is you're not hanging out with enough poets.

Funny enough, here's a verse from my latest:

Driving in his Mercedes-Benz,

Talking on his Bluetooth headset,

About the national debt.

With his hand-picked best friends,

A past he better damn forget,

That's the winning mindset.

Chorus:

Cuz he knows what to do,

He's just better than you,

He goes to all the right places,

Knows all the right faces,

He only gets what he chases,

He's just better than you.

---

Good luck in the rat race!

[kungtotte]

People don't mind money and riches, they mind the over-achiever attitude and workaholic lifestyle.

I can work more and make more money, but I make enough for my lifestyle and I have lots​ of time left over for my family. I don't want all the money in the world if I won't have the free time to spend the money.

That's the point that's being made here. If I were to suddenly get 10% more money for exactly the same amount of work it's not like I'd turn it down, and if I won the lottery I wouldn't give it away.

[nategri]

>>money is quantifiably good

'money' is quantifiable, however 'good' is not

[nxsynonym]

To each his own - personally I don't get validation from material goods, vacations, or social status.

If that's what makes you tick, then by all means work your fingers to the bone trying to achieve those things. But this shouldn't be the golden standard for a life well lived.

I believe that as a society we should focus more on building happiness through mental health instead of buying into the "buy more be more happy" way of life. Again, if that's what you truly want then go for it - but it shouldn't be assumed.

[xxSparkleSxx]

I'd be happy with average if average in America meant I could afford healthcare, a mediocre home, and a mediocre car. I almost make the average salary in my city (after 2 STEM degrees) and I can't afford 2/3 of the things I just listed and I'm almost 30.

Most people, not me, would also want to be able to afford a family/children.

[silvestrov]

This is what average-wage people can get in Scandinavia.

[loader]

These same people will also vote against their own best interests because they think they'll be one of those well off people eventually.

[JKCalhoun]

> I also think that there should be more emphasis on separating personal/professional ambition from how much you earn.

Absolutely. I'm probably on the prolific end of the spectrum, but not with the end-goal to make money (although extra money would free me up to be even more prolific).

I think the end goal is to make the most out of this brief existence for whatever that's worth (and for whatever you take "most" to mean).

I create, therefore I am.

At least that seems to be the way I turned out.