[mindentropy]

I don't understand the medical treatment thing. Why is it so that everything has to be treated? What do you define as ideal? People have different types of personalities and it is necessary in the system. In my opinion it is better to give time to people so that they overcome. We really tend to underestimate the coping capabilities of humans.

[Klathmon]

I struggled with ADHD on my own for years because of this thinking. I lost a job, I lost relationships, I lost time in my life that I could have been doing something productive and instead was flailing around jumping from one thing to another, the whole time feeling more and more depressed as time went on because I must be the only guy that couldn't "figure this out" without needing to be "fixed" by medication.

I eventually came around, and it's a night-and-day difference. The medication is only a part of the system that I now have to manage ADHD, but I wouldn't be where I am today without it. Not everything needs to be treated, but when that treatment could very well make almost every single aspect of your life better, to the point of allowing you to actually live a live, why would you encourage people to not take it?

This is why we try to classify different types of learning disabilities. There's a difference between "can't focus" and "can't focus to the point of it being a significant detriment to their lives". There's a difference between "I can't sit still" and "I've spent the last 6 hours trying to write a few lines of code but I just can't get my goddamn brain to stop thinking about other stuff for 2 goddamn seconds to even get an on-topic thought in, and now I'm meta-analyzing my own thoughts instead of actually working just making the problem worse and this entire thing is hopeless because if it takes me this long to write a few lines what hope do I ever have of actually completing a program". And that thought process continues for another hour or so interrupted by a "okay just focus" and a few minutes of trying to get back on topic before the spiral starts again until I finally start to make headway only to realize that an hour later I somehow got off-topic again but this time while writing code fixing a bug in some unrelated project, only to then curse myself while dropping that bug only to stare at the fucking screen again not being productive.

It's the former which is a personality and the latter which is a disability.

[jacobush]

A day in the life - can relate.

[mindentropy]

Do you have to be medicated all through your life or can it be improved by slowly weaning off of it? Please do not misunderstand but the reason why I am asking this is because of a genuine concern for people like you to be able to control the thinking by yourself and not be dependent on drugs.

Ref: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/suffer-the-children/201...

Edit: Added reference.

[Klathmon]

To get the benefits of the medication, I need to be on the medication. It's caused by a chemical imbalance in my brain, and just like someone who has to wear glasses can't be "weaned" out of them, I can't be "weaned" off my medication without seeing the effects of the disability.

I do only take it on weekdays for the most part (mainly because tolerance builds and if I take it every day it can start to lose effectiveness), but I will still take it some weekends if I feel I need it.

And I do control the thinking I do, with or without the medication. It doesn't alter who I am, it doesn't change my personality, it doesn't make me "smarter" or "dumber" or anything like that, it just lets me focus. Even my wife can't tell when I do or don't take it, because externally it's that non-obvious.

It's a medication that fixes a problem. The glasses analogy has always felt like the best fitting one for me, as neither I nor someone who has to wear glasses are really truly "dependent" on the medication/device, but without them we won't be as productive members of society. And we wouldn't be happy.

I understand that you mean no harm, but you come off as someone who doesn't really know anything about the subject and are telling people who do to stop helping. I would suggest you go read up on some learning disabilities, go read up on the studies done and the medications used and the solutions there are out there and the effects they have on not only the individual but their friends, their family, their coworkers, their life.

[mindentropy]

I have seen first hand cases of dissent being suppressed by giving the reason that if the person does not adhere to the majority point of view then there is something wrong psychologically even if the majority is completely in the wrong. By giving strong medication I see them suppressed of their thoughts completely to the point that they are always dazed.

This is why I am always concerned about misdiagnoses or being taken advantage of. For a person suffering from some physical disease it is easy to see and measure but in case of psychological disease it is tough. Here I am not talking about some developed country but in third world countries where medical expertise is limited and hence are regularly cheated.

Hope you understand where I am coming from. I am not against anybody taking medication if diagnosed properly and sincerely hope things improve in the medical field that they can be off the medication and lead a normal life.

Just a quick question. How do you fair in labor intensive tasks such as woodworking or metal fabrication etc? Do you fair better in those tasks than coding? The same thing with physical sports. Does it help you to focus?

[Klathmon]

Almost identically in those cases. It feels like the "mind" equivalent of trying to put to magnets together on the same pole.

I'll start, then I'll get distracted or get wrapped up in some small inconsequential detail which feels like it has the pull of a freight train to my attention. It also leads to mostly unfinished projects that i've attempted to do before.

It also happens even during "pastime" stuff like trying to watch a movie or even just hanging out with friends, and if I don't take my medicine for a while, it has actually kept me awake before (yeah, i can't focus on sleeping...)

It's like my mind is going 60 miles an hour but in the opposite direction I want it to go. I can't sit still, I can't just "stop" thinking, and I can't focus on what I want to do.

I get that you might be fearful of medically induced suppression or something, but do a little research before giving your opinion on if people should be taking medication. Giving stimulants to people isn't going to do anything to help with suppressing them. And just because you are fearful of medical suppression, doesn't mean that people should stop taking their antibiotics.

[mindentropy]

My opinion was wrong and I stand corrected.

[spiralx]

> We really tend to underestimate the coping capabilities of humans.

That's great, but you're really overestimating the coping capabilities of people with ADHD - which is defined in relation to causing significant difficulties with ones life. And then there are all of the poor coping strategies which one comes up with over time that can minimise obvious problems while magnifying underlying ones.

Medication makes a huge difference. Would you say the same to a diabetic? If not, why would you say that to someone with ADHD?

[mindentropy]

I might not have been clear. In case of serious disabilities I really understand with the medication. If there are minor disabilities shouldn't medication be minimized? Shouldn't the person be given time in the society? Is it just the super fast lifestyle which aggravate the disability?

I would not say no medication to a diabetic but I would say to adhere to a good lifestyle and diet to minimize medications if possible.

[spiralx]

> In case of serious disabilities I really understand with the medication.

Being diagnosed with a mental condition generally implies serious difficulties - just being a bit distractable won't get you a diagnosis of ADHD.

> If there are minor disabilities shouldn't medication be minimized?

Why? If medication is the most effective way to treat a condition what would the basis be for avoiding using it?

> Shouldn't the person be given time in the society? Is it just the super fast lifestyle which aggravate the disability?

What super-fast lifestyle? There are coping strategies you can develop for mitigating some of the effects of ADHD, and I took part in a study on the effects of CBT used to help adults with ADHD to learn to manage their condition better. These are great, but they don't actually improve my attention, which links into your ability to remember - whereas taking Ritalin daily brings a noticeable improvement to my ability to concentrate and remember the details of my day to day life.

> I would not say no medication to a diabetic but I would say to adhere to a good lifestyle and diet to minimize medications if possible.

Do you think that medication for ADHD isn't already minimised? The implication here is again that you think people are being over-medicated - do you have any evidence for this?

[mindentropy]

>> Why? If medication is the most effective way to treat a condition what would the basis be for avoiding using it?

>> <snip> whereas taking Ritalin daily brings a noticeable improvement to my ability to concentrate and remember the details of my day to day life.

Wouldn't you worry about the side effects both short term and long term, known and unknown? Effects on the liver etc? Please understand that I am asking to know more. If the person is properly diagnosed and have the disabilities I really don't see any problem in medications.

Just to clear up the misunderstanding I am not against taking medications. I am against bad diagnosis by poor doctors.

>> Do you think that medication for ADHD isn't already minimised? The implication here is again that you think people are being over-medicated - do you have any evidence for this?

Honestly I cannot come to a conclusion that it isn't already minimized because I do not have the statistics nor am I a researcher in this.

Misdiagnosis becomes worse in some third world countries where the medication is available but good quality doctors are not present. Looking at the video linked below the diagnosis in the US too is not done right. Doesn't this cause a problem where there is no proper "measure" similar to blood glucose levels to diagnose diabetes and provide medications? The difference is that if somebody is prescribed diabetic medicines to a non-diabetic then there is a clear misdiagnois. How can you prove it is not the case with the above disorders where there is no way to clearly measure? (I really hope researches put some effort into it so that we get deeper insights on what actually causes these problems.)

What do you feel about this? : https://youtu.be/t90bpFHnFAY

[dvtv75]

I don't have ADHD or Dyslexia, but I do have NVLD (Non Verbal Learning Disorder) which has many symptoms in common with autism, so I'll try and give you some idea. (This is basically a brain dump, with some limited editing because I should have been in bed hours ago.)

If there was a treatment for this I would jump on it without hesitation. Why? Well, for one thing I would like to be able to tell when someone's lying to me. You all appear the same to me, as far as body language goes; I read only the most obvious or exaggerated cues.

I would also like to be able to tell when someone's wanting to use me for their own amusement before they start, which happens rather a lot, instead of when they start laughing at me.

I really want to understand intent. Did she ask me out, or does she just want to borrow that movie? Did I just get offered a job, or was that mentioned just in passing?

People constantly misunderstand me. Did she tell me about her boyfriend because she's misunderstood me? Colleague standing in the hallway crying, so I stop and ask what's going on. I inevitably somehow mess that up and make it worse, so in future I just walk on by rather than making it worse, and then: what a bastard, just ignoring someone in tears!

Another less-than-favorite "feature" is harder to describe. Someone can ask me to do something, and for no good reason at all there's a little snap in my head, and suddenly everything is about spiting that person, for no real reason. Some of my friends and colleagues are extremely forgiving of this, and I really do appreciate them for it.

Imagine doubting your memory, everything you've seen or heard, second guessing your recall of number or character sequences that you've just this moment read. With that in mind, can you imagine the horror and stress that comes from filling out forms? Did I read that right? Wait, why did I put today's date there?

I could go on for hours, but I've hopefully given you something of the picture. A lot of people think the downside isn't so bad, it's just that I can't remember things I've seen, and if I work a bit harder I'll be normal. For a moment, though, imagine living with just those issues that I've mentioned. With that in mind, I've read that suicide rates are significantly higher than normal for people who've been diagnosed with NVLD, and the author of that paper conjectured that a notable portion of suicide victims may have been explained with diagnosis, but as there's no real treatment for this disorder at this time, there's not really much hope.

I was diagnosed with this around the turn of the millennium, and if I'm really lucky, I may get my first session with someone capable of assisting me any month now. Understanding what's wrong does provide some limited relief, but I started seriously thinking about suicide around the age of 9 or 10 years. 30 years later and I still consider it most days, with varying degrees of conviction. Obviously things haven't been bad enough to go there, but I have been so close to it that a stranger choosing to smile at me on the street can make the difference.

On that note, I might take a few minutes to address all those "suicides are weak pathetic coward" types:

things are bad enough right now that it's looking like an option. There's a lot of negative crap going on, and I've got no way to deal with it. (One symptom of NVLD is an inability to control emotions. I'm not sure if that's specific to me, or in common with others.)

My partner's ruined us financially and is blaming me for it (while refusing to allow me to apply for a job with decent pay in any other city).

My job's a dead-end go-nowhere part-time position with little chance of meaningful promotion. Even if I did learn that one extra skill they've been pushing me to learn, there's no extra money in it so why would I? Wouldn't be the first time, either, because I can do every other role in the business (except sales). It's like a parent who pushes you to get a driver's license so you can go to the store for them.

There are very few alternative jobs around, and my skills for this job are ultimately not in high demand outside a field with high saturation of people wanting in - although I am very, very good at what I do and it'll take years to bring someone up to my level.

When I apply for the few suitable jobs, I never get them and I don't know why. They'll never tell me the real reason why ("..a better fit...") and it may even be that they don't know. It seems quite likely to me that I've committed some faux pas that I won't notice, or someone just took a dislike to me because I didn't react appropriately to body language that I couldn't understand.

I'm unable to save enough to retire, and in the near future I'm going to have to sell my car to cover my partner's debts, so I'll be walking 75 minutes in both directions five or six days a week, sun or snow, for just a little more than unemployment. After that, it'll be my internet gone (which is one of my main outlets) and I'll be completely isolated.

I've basically been unable to do anything worthwhile with my life, and will not have an opportunity (that I could identify) to find anything.

My dream career? Aeronautical engineer working for JPL or the like, unfortunately when you run the math requirement against NVLD, I basically can't do it. It's the same for anything I've ever really wanted to do. (Maths, physics, CS.)

Anything I do try will likely get dropped because it's too much effort (I burn out again) or I'll get distracted by another project.

Paper work is pure hell, and I burn out faster than anybody I've met. Mostly, people think that I'm just lazy, but if you ever want to see someone work hard then you find someone with NVLD and give them a (worthwhile) project.

My ex- used to give me hell about it, and my present CEO told me that NVLD is a bullshit excuse for someone who was too lazy to learn how to use their brain.

There's a whole lot of further stuff that makes me too identifiable so I won't add it here, but consider all that I've mentioned above, and think how bleak things look for me - no future, constant cock-ups when dealing with people, no respite from the storm: every day is a new misunderstanding, a new social conflict that I don't have the skills to avoid or repair.

Throw in a bit (...a lot...) of PTSD from an abusive childhood to round things down a bit more.

It seems to me that this disorder is right at the outside edge of what I can cope with, although it really places people and this society at the edge rather than the disorder itself. But for those reading this who are shouting at their screens, "Don't do it!" just relax: I won't. I'll wake up in a few hours and hopefully feel a bit better - maybe the new day won't be so bad. My phone might ring, and that job I applied for a month back will invite me for an interview. I might even get it.

(Imagine that, underneath it all I'm still an optimist.)

Hmmm, this didn't turn into anything like what I was intending, but the basic premise is more-or-less still intact. I'm not looking for sympathy, or people to try help me in one way or another, which is why I like to keep my online identify unrelated to my real persona. I usually don't go back to messages I've posted, sometimes because I've said my piece and that's it, more often because I can't quite remember where I posted and finding it is more effort than it's worth.

In the end, I hope you've got a slightly better idea of why someone might want a cure for something that doesn't really seem like it would be a significant problem. You would be forgiven for thinking that NVLD isn't that bad as most people, including myself, think that way until they start looking at the specifics. I was diagnosed while at university, where staff accept the word of doctors, before I'd seen much of the real world where every second-rate CEO knows more than any damned quack because they worked hard to get where they are. (I only say this in case you, like most others, decide that it's only been a problem since I learned I have it. It's not that way at all, the difference is that now I understand why I am the way I am.)

[phonon]

I'm not familiar with NVLD, but have you thought about reaching out to an organization like

https://www.facebook.com/5000AutismJobs/?hc_ref=PAGES_TIMELI...

and seeing if they can help you?

[dvtv75]

That's a good idea, thanks! I'll take a look.