[tyfon]

The company I work at (in Norway) had planed to take all 70 employees to NYC this summer to celebrate a milestone reached.

We just moved the whole thing to Paris instead as we had issues with all of the above, including employees that have visited "dangerous" countries.

The thing that pushed everyone over was when our former prime minster was harassed[1] at the border for having been to a meeting in Iran. It says in his passport that he was a former prime minster, but apparently none is safe from the US border guards.

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/feb/03/former-norwa...

[Freak_NL]

It seems that the rules have become a lot stricter recently, and it looks like American citizens might end up feeling the consequences as well. This week a Dutch journalist wrote about being rejected by the ESTA visa waiver application because of a previous visit to Iraq as a journalist. So to travel to the US he gets to pay almost $200 and formally apply for a visa — for accredited journalists this is unheard of. Similarly Dutch with roots in Iraq or Iran are completely banned from the US simply for being born in the 'wrong' place.

This is all within the rights of America as a sovereign state of course, but it does mean that the call to cancel or limit the visa-free travel agreement that currently allows US citizens to visit the EU without a visa is gaining momentum (tit-for-tat politics).

[posguy]

Hey now, inferring that some journalists deserve protection because they may have credentials with a company or govt is both silly, and very dangerous. It creates a situation where you literally strip protection away from most journalists and put them in harms way.

Jake Appelbaum had a sendoff speech where he covered how his fellow journalists were putting him in grave danger when calling him an "Internet Activist" meanwhile he was publishing in the same paper as they were. He also covered how The Guardian left Julian Assange out to hang, allowed known compromised systems to remain in day to day use, and banned fellow journalists at other news orgs from writing about quite a few papers/topics from the Snowden archives.

[Freak_NL]

> Hey now, inferring that some journalists deserve protection because they may have credentials with a company or govt is both silly, and very dangerous.

I'm not sure what you mean by your comment with respect to what I wrote — I'm not inferring anything. The ESTA visa waiver program allowed for some leeway in granting people who visited certain countries (e.g., Iran, Iraq) access in certain cases. This seems to have included politicians and journalists. I expect that the US government did limit this to accredited journalists.

Personally I agree with those critics who point out that the whole ESTA program is effectively a thinly disguised visa program. It is a shame that it exists in the first place.

[wolfd]

It's not nearly as bad as that, but when I traveled to Canada recently, and was crossing the border back into the US (as a lifetime citizen), I was asked about why I traveled to Turkey and the U.A.E. in the past two years. It was a bit weird, but I guess I'm not sure how routine it was.

[mnm1]

US border guards don't even know what a prime minister is. There's no way they know about diplomatic passports. They have no idea about the laws they are supposed to enforce. They think they're supposed to enforce laws that don't exist. They are stupid idiots who exert their power randomly and wrongly. That's been my experience. Expecting anything else is unrealistic. What else do you expect from someone who probably barely graduated high school in the US? If these people were qualified to work at McDonalds, I assume they would.

[slumberlust]

Are you confusing Customs with the TSA? In general, customs agents are much better trained and there is a lot of former military. TSA on the other hand is as you a low requirement job as you described.

[mnm1]

No. I'm talking about the border guards who check passports when flying back into the country. The one I talked to did not understand the concept of dual citizenship and insisted that I get rid of my non-US passport as soon as I entered because it is illegal. This is after failing to find my stamp in my US passport that had all of three stamps in it and trying to claim that I didn't have one! Talk about stupid! This borders on retardation! I assume this is the norm and the other concepts I mentioned are also beyond their meager understanding simply because this guy was so stupid that if he made it through the hiring process, plenty of other idiots have too. Hell, compared to this, the TSA employees are courteous and generally at least do their job properly.

[formerminister]

Good to see that former politicians are also being treated as badly as the rest of us. The sooner they all start realizing they aren't going to get special treatment the sooner they'll start actually representing everyone.

[nojvek]

I'm actually glad that they are treating everyone like shit.

[086421357909764]

It's sad to see that you've had this experience, but the Prime Minister specifically, that was a policy enforcement for a policy that was put in place with the previous administration. So sadly, it's not as new an issue as people think, it's been an issue for over 6 years.

[landryraccoon]

Do you have a source for this? When did the previous administration put this policy in place? I am skeptical that this was happening under the previous administration.

[shimon_e]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_System_for_Travel_A...

[4ad]

He was travelling on a diplomatic passport, that doesn't apply to him.

[shimon_e]

Apparently he wasn't at the time. News reports I read at the time said he applied for ESTA but was found to be in violation of ESTA terms at the boarder.

[4ad]

He was travelling on a diplomatic passport: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/feb/03/former-norwa...

[davidf18]

Well, I'm very sorry your employees missed out on visiting NYC. As a NYC resident and as someone who has been to Paris many times, Paris is very nice.

But people that come to NYC have a much greater experience. In the past month I met both an Italian who came here for the first time and an Israeli and both of them were so happy to be here.

I think your employer should schedule a trip to NYC for these 70 employees -- they must deserve it!

[barking]

A recent story in Europe was that travellers entering the US could be forced to reveal social network passwords. No idea if that is true or not but it was a headline.

[davidf18]

What do they call it now? Fake news?

But here is a real story. I'm American and "member of the tribe" who has been to Israel many times as shown by the passport stamps, speaks Hebrew and I didn't arrive at Ben-Gurion airport in Tel Aviv to a Turkish Air flight to Istanbul 3 hours in advance of the flight. My take-on was packed away and I was strip searched down to my underwear.

I was amused and happy for the security, but some people might be bothered by that.

[Daishiman]

Unlike the US, Israel and Turkey have been actively targeted by real, no-BS terrorist activity and their security measures are not the security theater that is the TSA, nor are their policies inspired by underlying racism but actual evidence-based security policy.

I'm 100% sure it's unpleasant, but their motives are far more trustworthy than the TSA's.

[davidf18]

I would have been subject of a terrorist attack in Jerusalem in 2008 except that I bought a chocolate bar in a tiny store at the last minute. I picked up the chocolate bar and before I could give the cashier the money, .....

> I'm 100% sure it's unpleasant,...

Well, for me, I am only too happy when there are these kinds of security measures....

Also, the screeners are all former military (even women in Israel are drafted) and have been trained to screen according to emotional response. (emotional prosody).

[InitialLastName]

Amused and happy seems like a misnomer when applied to overwhelmingly invasive, unnecessary procedures. Have they actually convinced you that this is improving security?

[davidf18]

Well, I don't believe the procedures to be unnecessary. Also, I am not a citizen of Israel but rather a guest, so anything to protect the citizens and other guests from terrorism.

In my opinion, if US airport security was run according to Israeli standards, 9/11 would have been less likely.

[logfromblammo]

If US airport security was run according to Israeli standards, all international flights would have to go through one of two airports, on the east and west coasts, each of which would have to be larger than ORD, JFK, LAX, DFW, and ATL combined. The special school required to train the screeners would effectively be the largest college in the world.

International tourism both in and out would shrink dramatically, as there are precious few religions that consider anywhere in the US to be special holy sites, and plenty of places to see in the US that don't require intensive security screening. No one I know would ever be amused by a strip search.

The Israeli air travel strategy just doesn't scale up quite that well.

[InitialLastName]

If they had locked and reinforced the cockpit doors, 9/11 wouldn't have happened.

That's all it takes.

[jrnichols]

True, and social media seems too quick to blame Trump for it. But a Democrat senator has been pushing for it for a while now.

https://www.shaheen.senate.gov/news/press/shaheen-leads-lett...

[e28eta]

As far as I can tell, that's something the Trump admin has suggested would be a good idea, but isn't policy yet. However, they do conduct other electronic searches.

https://www.eff.org/wp/digital-privacy-us-border-2017

[irrational]

I have no social media accounts. I would love to know what their protocol says to do if someone claims to not have any social media accounts.

[plandis]

Yet here you are posting on a public message board under (I'm assuming) your account :)

[madebysquares]

Then we get to debate what is constitutes as a social media acct? Any forum, any public comment board? Or what is more traditionally called social media, Reddit/Facebook/Instagram/Snapchat/Twitter and the like? Is email social media?

[eCa]

> But people that come to NYC have a much greater experience.

That's quite a statement. I certainly enjoyed my NYC trip a couple of years ago, but there are many european cities that I rather (re)visit before going back to the US. This is not only because of the current administration (though that doesn't help). People have different preferences.

[davidf18]

NYC has a 24/365 hour Apple Store which reflects the vibrancy of the city 24/365. Need I say more?

Europe is very beautiful. But for the creative energy and vibrancy NYC is the place to be.

[irrational]

This has to be a joke. You can't seriously be toting the availability of a 24/365 store (even an Apple store!) as some sort of benefit.

[davidf18]

A 24/365 Apple Store is a signal about how cool and new technologically vibrant NYC is ...we need it and use it 24/365. Repairs as well as purchases 24/365.

Number of Apple Stores in Manhattan = 7 (incl. one 24/365)

Number of Apple Stores in NYC 5 Boroughs = 10

Number of stores Paris (incl. La Defense) = 4

Number of stores London = 5

Number of stores Berlin = 1

Jazz/Blues/all kinds of music, a city open 24/7 full of creative vibrancy. 40% of New Yorkers not born in USA. We don't do BrExit here forcing (legal) residents out.

NYC has a 24 hour subway system which costs about $120 / month for unlimited rides. London and Paris shut down their subways at 12:30 AM. Thus, NYC is more committed to green, not forcing people to use gas guzzlers at night.

[indemnity]

Have you been to any Asian cities in the last two decades? NYC has its perks, but the subway systems of Tokyo, Shanghai, and Seoul make the MTA look pretty shabby.

These cities are also 24/7, to a greater extent than any Western city, I would argue.

[QuarterReptile]

NYC's vibrancy is largely a product of its environment, not proof of a better city. In the US, but for a few cities that mostly defeated planners'attempts to suburbanize them (NYC included), all our towns and cities are largely shit. The better ones have a couple of blocks of places worth being, but those are mostly choked in webs of car-dominated hellscape. If you want to go to a place that's decent, for most people, you have to drive. So why not drive into NYC and make a weekend of it? This NYC is very crowded because it's a shining beacon in a pile of disasters.

By comparison, every place you can reach within an hour or two of Paris probably is a place worth being. (This was my experience in Madrid, and I'm extrapolating here for Paris.) That's a lot less pressure forcing people into the city center, because people can enjoy themselves much closer to where they live.

You take 24 hour Apple stores as a sign of vibrancy. I'd sooner look at the density of independent bakeries.

As to your subway comment, your conclusion is absurd. It seems likely to me that the savings from having fewer redundant tracks (which would be needed to facilitate maintenance in a 24 hour system) would more than offset the small demand for middle-of-the-night trips that can't wait until the next morning.

[tripzilch]

In all fairness, if you'd close your subways for part of the night, how will you keep your schizophrenic people out of sight? (sorry I mean, homeless, yes that's the root of their issues, obviously, the mumbling, drooling, rocking back and forth, all side-effects of homelessness clearly)

Ah, such memories of my visit to that vibrant city ...

[S4M]

> We don't do BrExit here forcing (legal) residents out.

How about the Muslims?

[btowngar]

Yes, I really do think you need to say more. I'm certainly not convinced by the appeal of a 24/365 Apple Store...

[dkersten]

Its a negative to me because it highlights the consumerist attitude that seems to be prevalent in many parts of the US. The places that I personally felt where most culturally vibrant and interesting were typically the ones that are the least consumerist.

But thats just me! Everyone has their own preferences.

[dmode]

Different strokes for different folks. I find NYC extremely overrated.

[brightsize]

"'We're Getting The Hell Out Of This Sewer,' Entire Populace Reports"

http://www.theonion.com/article/84-million-new-yorkers-sudde...

[tripzilch]

NYC was easily the worst part about visiting the Greater New England area, but to each their own. I mean sure it's interesting to see that world-famous city and spend a week in it. But that first breath of fresh air in a week, as we stepped out of the train in Beacon, that was really nice too (not the only thing I didn't like about NYC, compared to the surrounding area, actually I only noticed it as I stepped out, after a week).