[grecy]

Answer:

Be in America where employees are close to slaves, and people are scared of losing their job, so you can force them to do these kinds of atrocious things.

My brother lived and worked in North America for 7 years before returning to Australia. He'd been in Australia for a few months when I asked what the biggest change was. He didn't say no snow, he didn't say driving on the wrong side of the road, food or attitudes.

He said in North America people are scared of and slaves to their jobs because of Health Care, student loans and debt in general, where-as in Australia employers are thankful to employees, and nobody is scared of their job.

I think it's a powerful statement when it's the most noticeable difference after 7 years.

[notalaser]

Pretty much this. A few years ago, I used to work for a small-ish American company that had offices in my corner of the world in Europe. They tried to pull this sort of crap in our office -- everyone except the guy in charge of the local office (who was a VP of something something -- his company had been bought some time before) quit within months.

The occasional week-long sprint before a release is one thing. I think better management/planning would avoid them, but they're normal in such a competitive industry, I guess. So I've worked 80-hour weeks at times, no complaint here. In fact, I think they're healthy now and then, I like the buzz that I get at 3 AM, it's good concentration exercise...

Constant work at this pace though, no, can't do. First, that's how bad software gets written. You literally get worse at your business for doing it. Second, those additional hours per day aren't just family time hours. They're also learning-new-things hours, reading hours, keeping myself informed hours, debating stuff with friends hours and so on. Not having them further decreases my chances of getting better employment somewhere else (or even getting a better position where I work right now) and slowly turns me into a social retard living in a bubble made out only of headlines. That can't be good for me.

Oh, and without additional pay, it's illegal pretty much everywhere around here.

It's probably like getting drunk -- getting shitfaced once a year with your old highschool friends to celebrate the anniversary of when you all got arrested for egging the principal's house is kind of a healthy social activity. Chugging a bottle of Jameson every day because that's how we do things around here is called being an alcoholic and it's really bad for your insides.

I've had colleagues who glorified this sort of work. It does create some amount of peer pressure (unsurprisingly, the managers are quick to praise this sort of stuff), but after the ripe age of 17 I've learned to deal with that.

[mkagenius]

In India, most of the students get a bachelors degree without any loan. No one in India becomes homeless in a week if he loses his job. This loan and debt thing is really messed up in the US.

[barry-cotter]

In India slightly over a quarter of the population are illiterate.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy_in_India

The World Bank, in 2011 based on 2005's PPPs International Comparison Program, estimated 23.6% of Indian population, or about 276 million people, lived below $1.25 per day on purchasing power parity.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_India

[rajathagasthya]

What's your point? They are talking specifically about students a.k.a people who are literate and have a degree. How's citing literacy or poverty statistics relevant?

[barry-cotter]

India has real problems. Needing to take out a large loan to get a tertiary education when you have completed secondary education in a country where a quarter of the population are illiterate is not a problem.

The money that is spent on making education free for students at a tertiary level could be spent on improving primary education and it should be. No state in India is as rich as Ireland was in 1970. That's around when Ireland made secondary education free to students. To spend money on what is almost entirely a subsidy for the middle class when it could be used to help the wretchedly poor is an abomination.

[rajathagasthya]

> The money that is spent on making education free for students at a tertiary level could be spent on improving primary education and it should be.

Sources on that? Education is not free at a tertiary level. It's just really cheap. Also, your premise is completely opposite to the reality. Primary education in India has seen huge progress. Yes, there's still room for improvement, but the plans are in place. For example, public schools are mostly free and girls below a certain age gets free education. The concern is about low higher education enrollment levels, which stood only at about 24% in 2013 [1]. If tertiary education was free, this should've been much higher.

Coming back to the original comment, people usually don't take huge loans for education in India like in the US. So the chances of you being homeless if you lose your job is lower.

[1] http://data.uis.unesco.org/

[mkagenius]

> In India slightly over a quarter of the population are illiterate.

Most of them still aren't homeless. They somehow have a house to live in. Most illiterates still don't go for a loan to educate their kids, they try to educate with hard cash although they do not get very good education but loans are a big no no(mostly)

[barry-cotter]

I recently read an excellent book on the lives of the extremely poor, Poor Economics, Abhijit Bannerjee and Esther Duflo. The authors are development economists at MIT. If you think that poor people don't borrow money you should really read it. Anybody who's secure enough to make it a blanket rule not to borrow money is well above the kind of insecurity that those living on less than a dollar a day deal with.

As far as homelessness goes a homeless shelter in the first world is better than a lot of people's homes in the developing world. There will be clean drinking water, a toilet, almost certainly hot and cold running water, a sufficiency of reasonably nutritious food. One of the facts about the lives of the extremely poor I learned by reading that book is that it's common for migrant labourers in India to sleep on the street or where they're working rather than pay for accommodation. Mostly at work does not mean dorms, it means on a building site or on the floor in a store room.

[mkagenius]

> it's common for migrant labourers in India to sleep on the street

but not all poor are migrant workers. Most poor people live in villages made by their forefathers.

Poor people borrow money but they do not have to give their house in return and become homeless in case of non payment.

> who's secure enough to make it a blanket rule not to borrow money is well above the kind of insecurity that those living on less than a dollar a day deal with.

But in the US, even people with degrees from good colleges become homeless because of debt. I will be surprised to see many people in India becoming homeless because of education loan.

edit: Just to make my point clear, there is a difference in mindset of people in India and the US. Indians do not risk taking huge loans just to be able to have a job at the end of college or take huge home loans to live a posh life and later become homeless in case of a job lay off.

[Qwertious]

How many Indians with bachelors degrees are illiterate?

[aerovistae]

It's true. I love the US, but our student loans and healthcare systems just flat out suck.

As a country we've slowly-but-surely gotten so many things right, but we have a god damned long way to go, and it just feels like we're crawling. I guess with a population of 320 million it's kind of like trying to turn the Titanic.

[rorykoehler]

Exceptionalism is a strange beast. Thinking this way only hurts society at large.

[aerovistae]

Thing what way? How is this exceptionalism? How have I implied in any way that the United States is different or better than other countries?

[rorykoehler]

Sorry I was agreeing with you... Can see how you could read that in a way I didn't intend. My point was that by thinking the American way is the best already it stops healthy feedback loops.

[scottlocklin]

"Usura rusteth the chisel. It rusteth the craft and the craftsman."

There were a few decades the country wasn't a glorified sheep shearing operation, but those days are long past.

[rorykoehler]

The problem with this is it creates many dead weights who work to rule as the rule if even that. I can't wait for basic income so finally only the people who want to work do. There is nothing more frustrating than working with someone who doesn't cooperate because they know firing them isn't worth it. Europe and Australia have plenty of these cases.

[mack73]

Nobody outside of NA are scared of loosing their jobs, is what you believe, because of how enslaved to the system Americans are?

Households in Sweden take on heavy debt. If we loose our jobs here some of us fall back for a while on a (voluntary) system which from an angle looks like a basic income but that cover only a fraction of that household's mortage, enslaving us to a system in the same way Americans may seem enslaved in their.

I always though Americans were used to and didn't have a lost sence of security when job-hopping, the way their employment system is designed.

Edit: clarified the opt-in nature of such an insurance

[grecy]

> Nobody outside of NA are scared of loosing their jobs, is what you believe, because of how enslaved to the system Americans are?

I didn't say nobody, and I didn't say everywhere outside America. Don't exaggerate what I said.

I used an example that Australia Vs. America is a vast difference.

In my experience (and that of my brother), Americans not having maternity leave, sick leave, decent holidays etc. and having student debt and health care tied to their work means they are treated much more like slaves than in other high-performing OECD countries.

I'm curious about Sweden now.

- When one does lose their job in Sweden, what happens when you break your leg next week? or get cancer?

- How much student debt to those in Sweden incur for a 4 years bachelor degree?

- How many weeks of leave does Sweden mandate by law from full-time work?

- How about maternity leave and sick leave?

[mack73]

>Don't exaggerate what I said

Alright then.

>When one does lose their job in Sweden, what happens when you break your leg next week? or get cancer?

Care for children is always for free in all clinics except private ones. Care for the rest of us cost 30 EUR, no matter if you have a job or not. There is an upper roof of how much your yearly medical bill is. This roof stays the same if you have a job or not. I have it that roof a couple of times but never for acctual medicine bills, so I don't know exactly how it works for medicine, but doctor bills, the upper roof is 10 doctor visits for 30 EUR then a year of no doctor bills.

Many have extra insurance to conver for events where you loose your ability to work.

>How much student debt to those in Sweden incur for a 4 years bachelor degree?

One part of the debt you take on you never pay back. That part is like a carte blanche check that students get to spend on whatever education they like, at University level. Second part is a loan. Some work part-time while at University and others hit the roof which would be something like 17 semesters and 17*2000=34K EUR. Then you start paying that back as soon as you take on your first job but never over ~1% of your income.

>How many weeks of leave does Sweden mandate by law from full-time work?

5 weeks. Many have 6 weeks. You can get those in money instead of as vacation. 4 weeks is around a months pay.

>How about maternity leave and sick leave?

Everyone have sickleave. First day: no money for you, poor sick fellow. Next day its around 70% of your pay. If you are chronically ill a special incurance takes care of you, puts you in early retirement.

All mothers: around 300 days of leave per child. You get goverment money during those days. All fathers: minimum is 3 months I think? They can also use some of the mother's days.

[grecy]

Thanks for the detailed reply, I appreciate it.

As a thought exercise, answer all of my questions above for the USA, comparing the answers to those you gave for Sweden.

Now you know why I said workers in the USA are akin to slaves compared to high-performing OECD countries.

[mack73]

Yes, in Sweden we have laws that protect the employer to a much higher degree and we also have a very static work force. You can easily go this route: learn something, get a job, don't steal or do anything criminal, keep that job until you die or get replaced by a robot. And many do. And get very anxious at the prospect of ever changing occupation because of their mortage. I job-hop alot though (without anxiety, because I'm in demand).

I thought the American system would at least to some degree make job-hopping a non-issue, giving you a much more flexible work force, not anxious, since the fact that you can get fired and have to leave the same day goes both ways. But perhaps that worry comes from not having any type of security nets where we have at least a few. So sure, I see where you come from when you say an American employee is a slave to the corporation that gives him health insurance. He can hop only to other employers with health insurance. He will have less options than me.

We are healther in Sweden, perhaps, but slaves to the money system like everyone else.

[fatso83]

I think you mean employee (arbetar), not employer (arbetsgivare).

[hexointed]

I'm currently studying in Sweden. I think mack73 comment was slightly exaggerated.

- Health care insurance is not (as far as I know) provided by your employer.

- If you take the maximum amount of student loan from CSN (http://www.csn.se/en/2.1034), you'll end up whith ~70 000kr debt per year

- Swedish law mandates 25 day of paid leave per year for a full time employee. https://lagen.nu/1977:480 (in Swedish)

- We have parental leave with some compensation for 480 days, you can find more information here: (http://preview.tinyurl.com/ktgsyyg)

[mack73]

Yes and it was also a while ago since I studied. Your numbers seem correct. Extra health insurance is often provided to you by your employer though. With standard health care a broken leg is the same price as an ear infection. Extra insurance in some cases equal a doctors apointment within the hour instead of waiting a day or so. 25 days = 5 working weeks. Our parental leave is outstanding.

My point was not to say we have not come a long way in Sweden. It was to question if that really makes us feel less like slaves to the system. My view is we have built this system to make sure we have a happy work force. Allthough that might not sound sinister, it does make me feel part of a system that it is hard to opt-out from.

I definetly feel like a slave to the monetary system. But this is already way off-topic.

[Yetanfou]

I live in Sweden myself, having emigrated from the Netherlands. With the proceedings of my relatively modest house in the Netherlands I could buy a 21 hectare farm in Sweden, no mortgage needed. Mind, this is after I paid off the remaining mortgage on the Dutch house. That house was in one of the least popular 'cities' in the Netherlands, the scare quotes around the word city are because many people consider the place (Lelystad) to be a failed city - it was an experiment in city planning in the 70's, a totally new city concept built on totally new (reclaimed) land. The place feels like an agglomeration of suburbs without a real 'living' centre.

The point of this is that I wonder why Swedes get into so much debt. Housing is (apart from Stockholm and Göteborg and some popular areas in other cities) affordable by my Dutch standards. Wages are on par with the Netherlands, taxes are comparable (both are high-tax countries for wage earners), cost of living depends very much on your life style but is comparable to or slightly higher than the Netherlands. Still, Swedes seem to take on enormous loans for some unfathomable reason. Unfathomable, because it certainly is possible to live free here, without that yoke of debt. It might be a status thing, people want to live in those expensive areas even though you can get more space for half the price only a few kilometres away.

[apexalpha]

Dutch here. We also have huge debt, on average. But if we lose our job and don't find one within 1 year (of unemployment benefits) and welfare after that isn't enoughh you can still sell your house. You can't really sell your degree to make up for the debt.

That being said, someone in the US also easily earns double salary compared to Europe and has lower taxes.

[tostitos1979]

What is the nature of the debt? Housing?

As an aside, I once saw a homeless man in a Scandinavian country. Someone actually stopped their car to check on them. As a tourist from NA, my mind was blown. Was impressed by that but not having to pay 10 bucks for a cup of tea :p

[oskarth]

I grew up in Stockholm, Sweden and used to live there until a few years ago. There are plenty of homeless people in Stockholm nowadays. There's one outside almost every grocery store in the city center. For comparison, I'm currently living in Taipei, and I can count the number of homeless people I have seen in the last few months on one hand. They probably exists but they are definitely not visibly present.

As to the nature of debt, it is almost entirely in housing. It is currently a big debate about whatever there should be laws on private cash investment and mortgage repayment rates.

Homelessness example from Sweden's public radio (2014): http://sverigesradio.se/sida/artikel.aspx?programid=2054&art...

OECD private debt: https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-debt.htm

EDIT: Almost all the homeless people you see in Stockholm are Romani people. They are one of the five officially recognized national minorities in Sweden, along with Jews, Sami, Sweden Finns and Tornedalers (https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&pr...)

[jkgjgkjh]

Are the homeless in Stockholm Swedish or Roma?

EDIT

> EDIT: Almost all the homeless people you see in Stockholm are Romani people. They are one of the five officially recognized national minorities in Sweden, along with Jews, Sami, Sweden Finns and Tornedalers ...

Please refer to my post below replying to this same assertion from another poster.

[jpatokal]

Those are not mutually exclusive options: there are plenty of Roma who have been in Scandinavia for centuries.

[jkgjgkjh]

Yes I know, but to pretend that the number of Roma begging in city centers in some parts of Scandinavia has not increased by orders of magnitude in the past decade is pointless.

My point is that the OP was attempting to construct an argument about the supposed failings of a social structure based upon an anecdote about people that were never part of the social structure in the first place.

(NB I never said that they aren't welcome to join the society just that they haven't done so.)

[Rainymood]

I think (another) root cause of the problem is the education system in America. People go to great lengths (i.e. playing "slave" in High School) to get into great colleges which are often privately funded. This means that high performers go to good colleges and some of them score big and give back to their alma mater which reinforces the school with money so they can hire better people etc etc. Disclaimer: European and total outsider so please correct me if my views are wrong I am very interested in how Americans see this system. Do you think it's unfair?

[dfraser992]

That is a bit simplistic. The social pressures to get into a great college have increased greatly from when I went to high school (and I was in a good school district, most in America are horrible or substandard). But the fundamental purpose of American education - to socialize kids into cannon fodder for the Industrial Revolution - has always been the driving force behind educational practices in America. Read up on the works of John Taylor Gatto [0] if you want a critical analysis of the American educational system.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Taylor_Gatto