[yomly]

Let's take a look at America:

They spy on you, regardless of if you live in the country or not, committing global espionage[0][1]

They do not observe human rights when imprisoning you [2][3]

They are happy to bomb civilians using automated robots in the name of freedom and enlisting you to their brand of freedom[4]

They are happy to arm terrorists then assassinate them when they are no longer relevant to their cause[5]

They will wage illegal wars when it is convenient for them[6]

They were happy to obliterate people's homes to conduct nuclear tests in the name of freedom[7]

They institutionally protect the interests of the people with the most access to wealth[8]

They have elected a narcissistic nepotistic sexist bigot for their president, and do not have free healthcare [no citations necessary]

I'm not here to spark a tally of which country has committed more atrocities or which country is better - the world is simply a dirty place, and to this day, humans are still as capable of committing human on human sin.

China is no doubt guilty of many crimes too but I find China bashing by other countries reeking of hypocrisy and evidence that our own nations' propaganda machines are well oiled and in full-throttle.

The victor writes history.

[0] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/08/wikile...

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/mar/08/wikile...

[2] http://www.slate.com/blogs/crime/2013/10/23/marion_prison_lo...

[3] http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/guantanamo-...

[4] https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/03/the-oba...

[5]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_CIA_assistance_...

[6]http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/chilcot-report...

[7]https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/06/marshall-islan...

[8]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13925858

EDIT: added an additional point

[product50]

At least there are articles/opinions written down for what is happening in US which you can quote. For China, in many cases, you can't even do that given press/govt restrictions.

Also, to say that China has better human rights record vs. US is almost blasphemy. Why even quote that?

For the last point, what are you trying to say? Democracy doesn't work - lets all most to the communist model!? I know you are trying to be a the devils advocate, but using one off examples (while ignoring everything that China represents) to justify your points seems wrong.

[dilemma]

>At least there are articles/opinions written down for what is happening in US which you can quote. For China, in many cases, you can't even do that given press/govt restrictions.

Which Chinese news publications do you read?

[product50]

Doesn't matter. Read this: http://time.com/4310607/china-press-freedom-media-xi-jinping...

Also, are you really trying to say that press in China has unfettered rights to publish anything? This is a country which has a giant firewall to prevent users from reading news/articles critical of it published outside China.

[dilemma]

So you can't read Chinese and have never read a Chinese newspaper.

[jldugger]

We can (and should) complain about this, but the sins of another do not dismiss your own.

[yomly]

Yeah - as I said, I'm not saying China is without sin. I just find China bashing to really be nothing more than an exercise of "pulling the ladder up". Europe was perfectly happy colonising the world in its heyday, as was America in the past. Now that they've entrenched their position in the world, suddenly it's not ok when other people are trying to climb the ladder.

[jahnu]

You are implying that China _must_ behave this way in order to become a developed country and then they can adjust to modern standards. Seems silly to me.

[kitschshrine]

uh, this is 2017, not 1930s. let's judge China by today's standard. You can't absolve a sin from someone today because someone else "used to do it" 100 years ago

[imjustsaying]

>They ...do not have free healthcare [no citations necessary]

When I lived and worked in China, for a government entity, the insurance didn't cover anything I ever needed it for and I had to pay out of pocket 100% of the time for all costs. The private healthcare industry is exploding in China right now because the public healthcare system is inadequate.

There is no such thing as free healthcare. Even if you install single payer and ration health supplies to the extent more people die on waiting lists like in Canada, the government will still be paying for the little care that remains through your own taxes or debt obligations.

More enlightenment: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peVLkW7uirI

[sosborn]

> people die on waiting lists like in Canada

People die on waiting lists in America too, so if you are going to make this argument, be specific. How many people, what are they on the waiting list for, and how is it worse than what we have in America?

[imjustsaying]

The answer is in just one word to the left of that quote: "_more_ people die on waiting lists like in Canada."

It's not that the free market provides a panacea utopia, it's that it's empirically better than everything else. The government system in Canada predictably and steadily broke down as efficiency left due to the lack of a free market.

>The study, an annual survey of physicians from across Canada, reports a median wait time of 20 weeks [in 2016] —the longest ever recorded—and more than double the 9.3 weeks Canadians waited in 1993 [when single-payer began], when the Fraser Institute began tracking wait times for medically necessary elective treatments.

http://canadafreepress.com/article/canadas-health-care-wait-...

[sosborn]

Ok, but you still haven't shown any numbers regarding deaths and how they compare to America.

[imjustsaying]

Well this will be my last response in playing the "but what about X" whackamole game where someone fires off a one liner and I gather data to create response after response when I've already demonstrated and evidenced the concepts and none of the axioms I've mentioned whose application would've answered that question have been addressed let alone refuted.

I've already spent significant amounts of effort in this thread gathering and summarizing data only to be repeatedly downvoted for bringing hard evidence that challenges the status quo opinion.

The study I've already cited more closely than international comparisons isolates the variable of single payer because it measures the same data points over time using the same methodology in the same country.

Comparing the US and Canada tends to be less reliable in comparison because the properties involved are more fluid, although it's still a useful comparison in some ways. Furthermore, the US healthcare system already has major single payer elements such as Medicare, which would complicate the isolation of the variable.

I just googled "difference in procedure wait times between the united states and canada" and literally every result on the front page supports the longer wait times in Canada that you asked to be shown.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2016-08-...

http://www.factcheck.org/2007/12/comparing-health-care-in-ca...

https://www.amsa.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/WaitingTimes...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_the_healthcare_s...

http://getbetterhealth.com/wait-times-for-medical-care-how-t...

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/06/sunday-review/long-waits-...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2585450/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3633404/

https://books.google.com/books?id=McL2UV9_QGUC&pg=PA176&lpg=...

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/sites/default/files/reducing...

[imjustsaying]

In China, you would be sent to the gulags or disappeared for making this kind of post.

[mazerackham]

don't forget America's president is also a billionaire!

[michaelgrosner2]

* probably

[kitschshrine]

i was wondering when a 'whataboutism' person was gonna show up. why don't we stay on topic and talk about China. Btw, I'm not American

"I'm not here to spark a tally of which country has committed more atrocities" lol you just did.