[clentaminator]

Brain plasticity and learning "power" aside, I believe the biggest difference between learning something as a child and as an adult is simple how conscious we are that we're trying to learn something and how much we self-reflect and analyse our own abilities and progress.

As a child we typically do things just because we enjoy them, and often don't have an idea of a goal or target, other than simply doing the thing because we find it intrinsically fun. As an adult however we become highly analytic, self-reflective and critical of both ourselves and others, and we start to do things with a consciousness and awareness of others.

Additionally, by the time you reach adulthood there's a high chance that there's a thing that you've done enough to be in a fairly experienced position with, so anything new undertaken as an adult will now be judged in terms of the things you can already do, which means it will feel difficult and you'll believe that you suck at it. Which you do, because you're a beginner, and that's normal and is precisely what it means to be taking up something new!

While trying to play the piano as a child I had no thoughts of achieving a goal or getting to a specific level, and I certainly didn't compare myself to others. I just did it because it was fun. By the time I was more conscious of enjoying it and knew that I wanted to learn more seriously I'd already acquired a basic level of keyboard fluency.

So, having bought a guitar a few weeks ago and finding that all of a sudden trying to acquire a new physical skill is actually difficult (particularly important to remember as a developer where often what we're learning is a variation on an existing technique), I keep having to remind myself that it only feels difficult because it's new, and it would feel just as difficult if I were starting from a younger age, except I just wouldn't be so darn self-conscious about it.

[criddell]

How far along are you with the guitar? I bought mine in 1996 and have been trying to learn it on and off since then. I still don't know a single song, other than the little toy songs in the Hal Leonard books (and only if I have the books in front of me). It's incredibly frustrating.

I bought a second guitar a few years ago to keep at work and I use it during times when I need a break. Even though all I do are scales and nursery rhymes, it's still pretty relaxing.

I've had two different teachers, I've used games like Rocksmith, I've done online self-study courses (Justin Sandercoe seems like a wonderful person), bought the sheet music for my favorite records, etc...

My kids, on the other hand, made progress on their instruments (piano and violin) unbelievably quickly.

[clentaminator]

Oops, I said "couple of weeks" when what I meant was "couple of days"! So current progress with just Justin Sandercoe's online courses (and not having had any full days to devote yet) is that I've learnt a few chords (D, A and E) and have been working on speeding up the transitions between them.

Mentally I feel like I'm in the stage of curiosity right now, where I simply want to get a feel for the instrument and see whether or not it sticks. I know the genres and styles that inspire me though, and I try not to think about the vast gap between my current abilities and even basic fluency on the instrument (adult self-consciousness).

With piano I played and picked things up myself for quite a long time, such that I now wish I'd realised my interests were serious sooner than I did. With guitar I'm hoping that I work out if it's something I want to continue much sooner, so I don't waste as much time ;)

I certainly don't feel too frustrated at the moment, but I wouldn't mind if the keyboard fluency I've acquired over the years made a difference on the fretboard instead of the whole thing feeling completely unnatural ;)

[mattmanser]

Scales and nursery rhymes?

If you want to play songs learn chords. Learn A, D and E, play wild thing. Takes like 20 minutes play badly, a couple of days to play ok.

Scales are for soloing rather than rhythm guitar.

[criddell]

I know some chords: A, Am, C, C7, D, D7, E, Em, G, G7

I can switch between those fairly fluidly.

Even Wild Thing has a solo part in the middle. A, D, and E really aren't enough, are they?

Can you name a few other real songs that you think are early beginner level?

[mattmanser]

That's the kids secret, they don't learn it all in one big bang. Kids don't play the solo or play it perfectly to begin with. They play along with the song on the stereo, then you don't have to do the solo any way! There's also a rhythm guitar going on under a solo, if not you can fill that bit with the same chords as the solo is playing (usually the verse or chorus chords) based on those chords. Then they learn solos later.

Also, if you learn the barre chord, you learn most of modern rock's rhythm guitar.

Polly - Nirvana (E, G, D, C / D, C, G, A# barre), see https://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/n/nirvana/polly_crd.htm

Pennyroyal Tea - Nirvana (E, G + some barre chords) simple chords and an incredibly simple solo too)

Karma Police - Radiohead (this has a B in it though and like on piano, Bs are a bit awkward)

House of the Rising Sun

Help - Beatles

Everybody hurts - R.E.M. (very basic plucking, D/G), see https://tabs.ultimate-guitar.com/r/r_e_m_/everybody_hurts_cr...

I learnt in the 90s as you might be able to tell. Most songs I know I've no clue what the solos are. Here's some other ideas:

http://www.guitarnoise.com/blog/first-songs-to-learn-on-guit...

http://www.guitarhabits.com/top-30-easy-guitar-chord-songs-b...

It's also really easy to find basic arrangements. Just search "[song name] tab". What I used to do is search for a song I liked, if the tab looked difficult, search for another song, until I found one I could handle.

Right now, I'm doing the inverse of you, learning piano when I know guitar. I'm doing a course which teaches you very basic song arrangements while it develops you chords and fingering skills, and I personally find it easier to pick up the techniques by practising along to arrangements I vaguely know, even if it's just a verse or chorus.

[criddell]

Thanks for taking the time to write this out. It's very helpful.

How are you finding the piano? At one point I thought that might be a better fit for me because I can type quickly and accurately. But now I watch my daughter play and seeing her read read and play different left and right hand sequences makes me think that would have been more difficult.

After spending quite a bit of time playing Rocksmith, I can't help but think that it should be way better than it is. I think their strategy of ramping up the difficulty is excellent, but the imprecision of the DAC is frustrating. I want it to tell me when I'm accidentally muting or playing a string. I want it to be way more strict in timing of notes and sustains and bends. I suspect that would require custom electronics with a DAC on each string, but I'd be happy to buy that.

[mattmanser]

Piano's quite fun but not got to the bit yet where you need to play different rhythms with different hands. I'm weeks into it. It's surprisingly easier than I thought it was going to be at the moment. The new methods of teaching seem to be much better.

If you're find rocksmith a good progression, I'd maybe think about sticking with that. String muffling is something you get better at with practice and as your fingers get better muscle memory, but if you watch any live performance you'll see even the pros do it sometimes. Also bends and sustains, you get better at very quickly. It's more just learning the whole sequence and then refining the sequence later. A lot of people don't have the "ear" for hearing those mistakes anyway and won't even notice you make them so it might be that it's deliberately imprecise for beginners, I've no idea when I picked up the skill. Fore example, most non-musicians won't notice a bass guitar or the difference between a bass guitar and a guitar, although generally speaking people seem to be a bit more musically literate these days than in the 90s because of the internet.

One great trick which you probably know about is to play a progression incredibly slowly, so slowly you get every note perfect (just a tiny snippet of a few notes, at most like 10 seconds of a song). Then repeat it a bit faster, but still very slow, making every note perfect. If you fail a note, restart it again at that speed. Increase speed a little bit every time you get it right until you're playing it faster than it's normally played.

EDIT: Also, there's a certain amount of your finger tips getting a bit harder as you play more which makes it easier to play.

[scallycat]

Knocking On Heaven's Door was the first 'real' song I could make sound halfway decent.

[criddell]

Bob Dylan's version?

Any other suggestions?

[scallycat]

Yes, Dylan's version, you can do it with only about four chords.

Others I have enjoyed learning are REM's Country Feedback (not the slide bit, the chords) and Bowie's cover of Jacques Brel's Amsterdam - this has an F but you can get away with Fmaj7, which is much easier.

I'm very much a beginner too - coming towards the end of the Justin Guitar beginner's course. The song book that goes along with it has some good tunes.

[SwellJoe]

I've played guitar since I was 12 (I'm much older than 12 now), but I've learned other instruments in adulthood (drums and bass, mostly), and I've taught guitar lessons to adults. I think I've got useful opinions on the subject.

I believe there's a certain mindset that develops in musicians, that doesn't have much to do with the instrument or your age. The thing about being a musician is, you're always learning. I don't mean that in a hand-wavey kind of way. I mean you literally are always learning: New songs, new arrangements with different musicians and different lineups, new ways to address your own limitations (as you get older, physical limits can play a role in how you play/sing/perform something). There is no state where you're "finished" becoming a musician.

So...to be a good musician: accept that it is always learning and that you'll never be finished learning, and play whole songs with other people.

If you can't play with people, use a metronome or drum machine. Rocksmith is probably great, though, for muscle memory and rhythm; but, I noticed when learning to play drums with Rock Band that I immediately forgot the songs when the tracks weren't flashing by in front of me, so my "twitch game" skills were handling playing the game, while my "learning songs" abilities were seemingly switched off.

But, definitely play songs. From start to finish. If you flub a note, keep going, but play it slower next time, until you can play it without flubbing it. Chord books are a great way to get satisfying music without a lot of knowledge. If you teach yourself to sing and play at the same time, you can make real music all by yourself. People might even like it. And, work on one song until you're comfortable with it, reducing how much you rely on the chord chart each pass through (look at it every bar to start, then every other bar, then every fourth bar, etc.).

As others have mentioned, learning fast is not just an innate trait, it's directly related to how you feel about learning. If you view the learning process as a roadblock, it will be one. It's not a roadblock; it's what everyone does every time they play a new song.

And, to compare learning in childhood vs learning as an adult; I learned guitar as a child (well, I started when I was 12), and drums as an adult (I tinkered in my 20s, but never owned a drum set until my 30s and definitely wasn't able to do more than hold down a simple 4/4 rhythm before that). I learned drums a lot faster than guitar. Maybe I would have developed muscle memory better as a child, maybe I would have gotten more of a nuanced appreciation of rhythm or something, but I was able to focus my learning in very productive ways as an adult that I probably didn't have the mental framework to do as a child. It probably helped that I already had pretty deep musical knowledge on which to hang my new drumming skills...but, nonetheless, drums are a very different set of skills from guitar.

When I think back on my learning to play guitar, I very rarely learned anything until there were "stakes". If I was learning a song just for the fun of it, I wouldn't do it...I'd fiddle around, learn one riff, repeat it a few times, and then go play video games or something. If I was learning a song to play with my band, or to perform for an audience, it would stick a lot faster.

[iaml]

>I noticed when learning to play drums with Rock Band that I immediately forgot the songs when the tracks weren't flashing by in front of me, so my "twitch game" skills were handling playing the game, while my "learning songs" abilities were seemingly switched off.

Rocksmith addresses this problem: when you reach a certain level of song mastery it starts making track invisible and if you make mistakes it puts it back on.