[squeaky-clean]

Likewise, none of my audio devices have required special drivers for Mac, and I can easily get 3ms latency by just plugging it in and making sure buffer size it at a minimum. I produced on Windows forever and didn't believe there would have been a noticeable difference switching to OSX.

[gens]

I find bout of your claims hard to believe as OSX has a sound architecture similar to PulseAudio.

Are the 3ms measured or is it just what OSX tells you ?

A buffer of 3ms at 48kHz holds 144 samples. That means shoveling 144 fresh samples (per channel, ofc) ~333 times a second and sending them to the sound card immediately. That may be possible if your sound card supports resampling (and minor magic) and only without a sound server (OSX uses one). Either that or you have an impressive cpu. Feel free to correct me at any point.

edit: PS This is only the program->sound_card part. Programs themselves add a ton of latency and sound cards add to it as well. In reality even 10ms is beyond perfect conditions.

[YZF]

The problem isn't the CPU, the problem is the OS going out for lunch, and then designs that assume the OS will go our for lunch (i.e. deep buffers everywhere)... The CPU can move data between devices with sub-microsecond latencies...

[akx]

I thought I'd try and measure this at some resolution (since my phone can capture at 120 FPS, I should be able to see 8 millisecond increments in a video).

Stepping frame by frame through the video I took (https://youtu.be/IHmC-q_iPiE) at the point where I press the key to sound a note, there's a 4 to 5 frame latency until I can visually see the speaker membrane move, so that's about 33 to 41 milliseconds.

Bitwig is set to 64 samples (1.45 ms) latency.

[baldfat]

I have never in my life seen a Mac out perform a Window machine when it comes to latency and professional audio recording. When it comes to $100-$200 parts it comes to drivers and sometimes Mac wins and sometimes Windows wins. I have a bias that goes beyond Pro-Tools but Pro-Tools was a thing because Apple hardware was not capable of producing Professional level recording without spending thousands of dollars in their proprietary hardware.

Since Windows XP Windows and Audio Latency has not been an issue and both platforms require a lot of end user work to get lower and lower latency. The issue is really only significant for recording audio and not as much when doing live audio. Any modern platforms latency light years ahead of 2000 audio production.

The idea that Mac is better for audio or video because of the OS is marketing and not based on real life professional use of the platforms.

[eropple]

> Since Windows XP Windows and Audio Latency has not been an issue

Core Audio literally-just-works with low latency and aggregated devices.

DAWs on Windows still either use MME/DX for north of 50ms, often 100ms+ latency or ASIO (exclusive device usage and no aggregation, assuming your hardware even has ASIO drivers because ASIO4ALL is at best rickety) on Windows.

I don't know what you think is going on with OS X, but I suggest re-evaluating your assumptions.

[squarefoot]

All decent hardware has ASIO drivers under Windows.

The problem there, being a closed environment where the manufacturer dictates when the product must die, is rather the drivers life. If they don't update the driver your pricey gear turns into a doorstop overnight. Case in point: Tascam US122 audio interface. Under Linux I can still use it; far from being the best around but it works. Under Windows it became unusable when they stopped supporting it years ago.

[dwringer]

... but with ASIO, it is quite possible to get 3ms latency in Windows at 96kHz. I agree it would be nice if the device weren't locked up by the DAW using ASIO, or if updated driver support weren't so hit-and miss, but it still works exceptionally well for what it is. It also makes Windows completely viable as a production platform.

[squeaky-clean]

No one here is saying Windows isn't a viable platform. Just arguing that OSX also works well, if not better by default. You yourself just listed some examples where Windows cannot do things that OSX can (device exclusivity through ASIO).

[eropple]

Yes, it totally is possible. But it's worse than Core Audio for most use cases.

[eon1]

> low latency and aggregated devices

Hang on, no way, you take one or the other. Aggregating devices adds a huge chunk of latency and, frankly, I don't think is that exciting a feature anyway. Maybe for your specific setup, but generally speaking you should buy gear that suits your needs, rather than try to cobble something together from existing devices.

Having used OSX and Win7 (on the same machine) I would agree CoreAudio is less hassle and definitely lower latency - IIRC, OSX reported just over half the latency of W7 on the same setup.

That said, I'm not sure what you think is going on with ASIO, since any class compliant USB audio interface has compatible drivers inherently..

[eropple]

> Aggregating devices adds a huge chunk of latency

In the situations where I have to do it--and it's less about "buying the gear that suits my needs," more "having to bash together other people's gear on a shoestring"--I find that aggregation ends up around 30ms, which is on the higher end of acceptable when monitoring in-ear. (To be specific--this is not for music but rather audio routing for video. Occasionally I'm on-site somewhere and need to be able to monkey up something a little faster than I'd like, you know?)

Trying to do that with ASIO at all is impossible. So it's a pretty big deal.

> That said, I'm not sure what you think is going on with ASIO, since any class compliant USB audio interface has compatible drivers inherently..

In theory, yes. In practice, I find ASIO a little unstable (my home setup uses Ableton on Windows as a live mixer through a TASCAM US-16x08, though I'll be going back to using a Mac when I get back my Mac mini from a friend). I have never had Core Audio kernel panic a machine, but I've had machines (in one memorable case, the same machine dual-booting a hackintoshed OS X and Windows) hard-lock as soon as I enabled ASIO on two different devices (my old TASCAM US-1200 and my a friend's 8i6).

It is not unusable, by any means, but for my purposes (again, live shows) predictability is a big plus.

[eon1]

> I find that aggregation ends up around 30ms, which is on the higher end of acceptable when monitoring in-ear

I haven't done that kind of work, so for video/speech, fair enough. 30ms (on top of whatever's already there) is not really acceptable for a musical performance, though - the performer will be expending half their brainpower trying to mentally align what they hear through bone conduction vs in ear monitoring and adjusting their performance based on outdated/scrambled information. It's a really confusing experience - if you've ever seen that Japanese "speech jammer" device[0] you'll get some idea what I mean (although it uses much longer than ~30ms, that's still enough to mess with you).

Working in a pinch, it would make a useful and more stable tool than ASIO, though I run either analog or dedicated devices for any live work - I just don't trust computers that much - but I get that working with video means you might not have those kind of options. I can't say I've had many of the troubles I've heard about with ASIO to be honest, but I undeniably do enjoy working on OSX more anyway. This conversation reminds me how badly I need to revive my ML Hackintosh..

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USDI3wnTZZg

[akx]

ASIO isn't always exclusive usage. My Focusrite Scarlett 2i2's own ASIO driver can run alongside other audio just fine.

[squeaky-clean]

> Since Windows XP Windows and Audio Latency has not been an issue and both platforms require a lot of end user work to get lower and lower latency.

As the other commentor said, Core Audio "just works" for low latency. MIDI is great as well. Windows still needs third party ASIO drivers.

If a USB MIDI controller gets unplugged during a set on Windows, I need to restart Ableton. On Mac, you just plug it back in and it picks up immediately, even the audio interface will do that.

> The issue is really only significant for recording audio and not as much when doing live audio.

What? Latency is a non-issue for recording audio, and A HUGE ISSUE for live usage. Any half-decent DAW supports latency compensation on non-realtime tracks. You can record a vocal track when every other instrument has 10s of seconds of latency, as long as your monitoring for the vocals has none. When playing live, every single track cannot have latency.

Edit, hell many of the best audio interfaces don't even support Windows as a platform.

[baldfat]

Well we will disagree 100% I don't think we are talking the same thing. BUT latency (aka delay) in audio recording is a HUGE deal. When someone is playing to a click track and previous recorded pieces and have that person perform with that delay makes it even worse. It's impact on the ability for the drummer to perform has made it default to record drums first. The difference between on beat, before beat or after beat is very significant.

Give this a read - https://www.presonus.com/community/Learn/The-Truth-About-Dig...

Live audio if you have above the human perception of latency you are in the realm of 20 or 30 ms.

> Edit, hell many of the best audio interfaces don't even support Windows as a platform.

What can I say marketing works and this perceived Mac superior creative types tool is believed by most people. In actual Professional world there are plenty of Windows based studios that won Emmy's, Oscars and Grammys.

[squeaky-clean]

> BUT latency (aka delay) in audio recording is a HUGE deal. When someone is playing to a click track and previous recorded pieces and have that person perform with that delay makes it even worse.

Please dude, look up latency compensation. You have zero idea what you're talking about and it's obvious.

> In actual Professional world there are plenty of Windows based studios that won Emmy's, Oscars and Grammys.

I don't believe I ever said otherwise. But to say Mac never outperforms Windows for audio is wrong. And to say Mac requires just as much setup work as Windows is a flat out lie.

[baldfat]

I owned my own Recording Studio and still do work for time to time as a sub-contrator. If you in your smug dialog think that adding a delay to different tracks and syncing them down to the bits is the issue I am sorry but you miss 100% of the point and you didn't read the link that I tried to show what I am talking about.

> I don't believe I ever said otherwise. But to say Mac never outperforms Windows for audio is wrong. And to say Mac requires just as much setup work as Windows is a flat out lie.

Nope. Its actually a huge pain BUT most people don't really care or need to actually dig that deep.

https://support.native-instruments.com/hc/en-us/articles/210...

https://support.focusrite.com/hc/en-gb/articles/207546515-Op...

Then you have the issue with your i/o in Macs with all your Desktop options that isn't a problem but all the laptops its a HUGE problem. I have no idea how people do audio with the i/o issues that Apple throw at you all the time. Thunderbolt anyone?

[eon1]

I think they have a fair idea of what they're talking about, but you've both rushed to reply without thoroughly reading. Seems they missed where you talked about it being okay as long as you can monitor realtime and you've missed that they missed that.

You are wrong about the need for proprietary ASIO drivers for all devices, or that many of the best audio interfaces don't support Windows.. One manufacturer is not "many" and while they are high range, it's definitely arguable whether they're the best.

Anyway, in my experience it's rarely the hardware itself that requires the majority of setup, and either way it's a once-off. Unless you're the kind of person who uses the same template for every recording session, in which case you have bigger problems than setup.

[imhelpingu]

The part I don't understand:

If you have a known constant output lag, a known constant input lag, but no lag in the monitor for just the track you're recording, it seems like the software has everything it needs to put back the performance exactly the way you recorded it (and to adjust the offset for the click).

Am I missing something?

[AstralStorm]

Monitoring. To monitor sound wet (as opposed to dry direct monitoring) you need very low latencies. This becomes important if you apply non-trivial effects.

[eropple]

You are not.

[baldfat]

Okay you have reverb or chorus or anything else you must have the mix wet. If you don't you are throwing everything off. Once again if you are not recording multi-track it really doesn't matter that much. If you throwing multiple of tracks and multiple of recordings its a HUGE issue that just manually or automatically delaying tracks won't fix. If "any modern DAW" could fix with a latency compensation then no one would be writing and working on latency for 20 years.

My point latency doesn't really matter for most people recording. BUT if you get in that realm where you need to worry about it then its a PAIN no matter what your OS is. Apple isn't "superior" in audio recording just like it isn't in video and image manipulation. OS is more about people's feeling and attachment to their OS's company's marketing.

I think Apple has been dishonest and hostile to people so I don't like them as a company. You can't trust them not to throw the rug out from under your feet (Thunderbolt cost studios thousands and thousands of dollars). Lack of a new Mac Pro also is a HUGE issue for most video shops now. Their OS drives me nuts and really unreliable for me. Other people love it and I am fine with your opinion until they think everything else is garbage.