[gizmo]

Repetition makes lies seem true, but repetition also makes truth seem true. All persuasion (and indoctrination) happens through repetition, whether in a classroom setting, a forum like this one, or in sales.

This realization is also deeply depressing, because it means you're doomed to repeat yourself over and over if you want to persuade people.

Let's take Noam Chomsky for instance. He gives more than a hundred talks every year for the past 50 years. He has written dozens (if not a hundred) books, given thousands of interviews. His message is always the same. Because after you've figured out what your best and most persuasive arguments are the only thing left to do is repeat yourself over and over. Every day is groundhog day.

Startups also have to learn the value of repetition. Long form sales text works, because of repetition. Long form video demos work, because of repetition. Drip email campaigns work, because of repetition. It's often better to give customers one good reason to use your product, repeated three times than to give three distinct reasons why they should purchase. Counter-intuitive, perhaps, unless you've heard this argument before.

[krrrh]

Another example is Ronald Reagan. I can't remember who said it, but one of the people around him was asked how he managed to become president and known as the great communicator, and the reply was along the lines of, "he made the same speech [1] every week for 25 years."

[1] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qXBswFfh6AY

[schoen]

Richard Stallman is another example of someone who gives the same handful of speeches over and over (many times in almost exactly the same words). I've heard him describe over and over again the wastefulness of not being able to write software to interact with a university printer because the printer manufacturer choose to keep the necessary details secret.

[theoh]

I've never seen Stallman speak, but that sounds like a similar situation to this anecdote from Nottingham in the 80s:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XvwNKpDUkiE

It's a somewhat tedious story but it's all about the freedom to control your own hardware.

[schoen]

Stallman's version is described in http://www.oreilly.com/openbook/freedom/ch01.html

or with Stallman's edits (I'm not sure if he's modified this chapter) in

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Free_as_in_Freedom_2.0/Chapte...

[kzrdude]

his copyright and community talk has stayed with me since I heard it 12 years ago, it certainly was special (well argued) and left a lasting impression.

[bluejekyll]

> This realization is also deeply depressing, because it means you're doomed to repeat yourself over and over if you want to persuade people.

Yes. Embrace this.

Patience is a virtue; and not getting angry because the person you've stated something to doesn't get it even the third time you've stated it. I actually find it fun to try and come up with different ways to state things such that people might better understand it.

[derefr]

"Doesn't get it" isn't always (or even usually) the problem, though. It's more "wasn't listening" or "didn't have time to comprehend what you meant (or the implications of what you meant) before the conversation moved on."

The biggest component of success in communication comes down to saying things enough times that your message can actually be listened to and digested at least once. You can vary the way you say things each time, but literal repetition works nearly as well, because the problem is almost never "I don't know what those words in that order mean" but rather "I didn't hear half that sentence" or "I was thinking about lunch" or "that might have been important but it just sort of passed by and I forgot."

[umberway]

Repetition of a true message to a variety of audiences may be valuable because one gains a better understanding of the common misconceptions and opposing arguments. Which leads to subtly improved arguments and rhetoric. Also there's always the possibility that the message is in fact wrong and that this may be brought to light by new criticism or fresh evidence.

[CoryG89]

I take your point, but I think it's a bit of an overstatement to say that all persuasion happens through repetition. Maybe I'm a bit full of myself, but I like to think that with sound enough logic, I could be persuaded from my position by hearing an argument only once.

That would probably be the distinction I would draw between persuasion in general and indoctrination / brainwashing. Of course, generally indoctrination and brainwashing seem to have a much higher rate of success in changing minds, which is indeed depressing.

[gizmo]

Learning is repetition. Exercises. Flash cards. Midterms followed by exams. You either hear the argument once and you repeat it to yourself, or you get the argument spoon fed multiple times, but the bottom line is the same. Without repetition there is no memorization or internalization, and no learning can take place.

Phrasing the challenge as "sound enough logic" puts the burden of proof in the wrong place. It implies that whenever you're not persuaded it's the fault of the other person for not being persuasive enough. That's the opposite of open-mindedness. It is exactly because of the presumption that your current beliefs are true that you won't change your mind as easily as you might think. Even Scientologists say they'll leave the church if somebody could just provide them with evidence it's all baloney, but it's a standard of proof nobody can meet.

When I say all persuasion is repetition, it's really not an overstatement. Maybe you're closer to believing me this time ;-)

[theoh]

Um, what about the Elaboration Likelihood Model? It's about persuasion and it contends that there are two ways it happens: through a rational evaluation of the material, or based on the credibility of the source (and other social cues).

Now, sometimes you might come to believe something through repetition, but it's possible to verify things (some of the time) and you shouldn't just claim that repetition is the only route.

[gizmo]

I think the model is wrong, because it presumes people are rational agents that change their mind either through careful evaluation of the arguments or by outsourcing this rational evaluation to a trustworthy person. This model doesn't take repetition at all into consideration, so I don't think it holds up empirically.

Back in Aristotle's day it was about Ethos, Pathos, and Logos. I don't think that model has stood the test of time either.

I don't want to open Pandora's Box, but look at Trump's speeches. He persuades through repetition, and it demonstrably works.

[theoh]

Ok, I didn't mean to beg the question by simply claiming that people can rationally evaluate statements.

The things people learn are not noise. They have structure, they have hidden consistencies. Whatever you think of the rationality or otherwise of thought, surely you will agree that trying to learn inconsistent facts is going to be more trouble than learning consistent facts which support each other in a cumulative way.

People might identify with the opinions of a politician because they already hold those opinions, or similar opinions. They are unlikely to ever agree with/be persuaded by complete inconsistent nonsense, however often it is repeated. Like, I mean nonsense that doesn't even have linguistic structure or maybe any meaning.

[rdtsc]

> People might identify with the opinions of a politician because they already hold those opinions,

Agree and I think it is even more than that. It is about how genuine they seem. I've listen to Hillary, Trump, Sanders and Obama, and some just naturally sound more genuine. Obama seemed genuine, like he believed what he was saying, Trump and Sanders as well. But not Hillary. She said all the right things, she was very polite, and seemed to be personable with jokes and remarks sprinkled here and there. But overall she sounded fake and scripted.

I posit, hearing someone who seems to truly believe what they say is a solid first step in persuading others to change their opinions. Otherwise it becomes an uphill battle and it is just pandering to people who already believe and agree with the argument.

[gizmo]

I guess we look at the world very differently, because:

> They are unlikely to ever agree with/be persuaded by complete inconsistent nonsense, however often it is repeated. Like, I mean nonsense that doesn't even have linguistic structure or maybe any meaning.

If the US election hasn't persuaded you that complete gibberish can be persuasive when repeated endlessly, there's nothing I can say that will.

[erik14th]

The "brainwashing" part is not related to the repetition, but the way you "acquire" the information, "acquire" on the sense of taking it for yourself. If you learn something through repetition, it's a good thing, it is learning. If you're fooled by repetition, then it's brainwashing. Also important to note, that quite often, the one that fools you is yourself. Now to distinct between "being fooled" and "learning". I would say that learning comprises understanding, while being fooled only comprises agreement. Thing is, defining "real understanding" is a pretty hard problem.

[metaobject]

I've read geometric/mathematical proofs that have convinced me immediately. Just seeing the logical steps flow from step to step was enough to prove the assertion was true.

[spynxic]

I consider this as an object of argument as well, however, axioms seem to be the underlying structure of repetition for all proofs [as far as I understand mathematics].

[drdeca]

What do you mean "structure of repetition"?

Premises which are already accepted are used to conclude further ones.

[noobermin]

Somewhat true but at some point, some people look around and realize even though something is at that point part of their psyche, they come to the realization that they've been had. I am aware that some people won't believe their eyes despite seeing evidence right in front of them, but a few aren't that foolish.

As that old Lincoln saying goes, you can fool some people all the time, all people some of the time, but you can't fool all people all the time.

[ianai]

I forget who said something like this, but "the danger is not in being heard. The reality is in having a good idea and having to repeat yourself over and over."

[eeZah7Ux]

You are confusing memorization, teaching and brainwashing/indoctrination.

They all work by repetition but last one hurts people ability to thing rationally.

[imartin2k]

Reminds me of the zillion articles that have been published over the years explaining why net neutrality is important. Sadly, this message doesn't even stick very well.