[superuser2]

> people won't stop wanting things that make their life better, and in general will continue to buy such things.

This is nonsensical.

You can only buy something if you know that it exists for sale and where.

The process by which you acquire this information is, by definition, advertising.

[dwaltrip]

I wanted a Bluetooth speaker. I sought out non-paid reviews by third parties (some of the being fellow consumers who had already bought the device), and then decided which speaker I thought would work best for me. I didn't make use of advertising in the process.

[mos_basik]

How did you know you wanted a Bluetooth speaker, or that such a thing exists?

In your specific case it's possible that you knew what speakers are, and you knew what Bluetooth is, and you extrapolated from there that the combination might exist and you went looking for one (carefully avoiding paid reviews in the process).

But it's also possible that you saw a post on techcrunch or HN years ago when Bluetooth speakers were first being developed that seeded the concept in your mind. Something changed between then and now such that you recently wanted to buy one, and that kicked off your ad-free research and purchasing process. Are you positive that no ads were involved in that original, long-past inception of the concept "Bluetooth speaker" in your mind? Or maybe one of those fellow consumers whose reviews you recently read originally bought their speaker because of an ad they saw.

If I make a better mousetrap, but then tell no one and never leave my farm, will the world beat a path to my door?

I think you might argue that there is a distinction between word of mouth flow of information and advertising, but the devil is in the details. Is publishing a peer-reviewed paper advertising? Is updating a blog about your project advertising? Is posting a limited number of access codes on a forum you don't own to a service you are launching advertising? Is cold calling advertising? Is sending unsolicited emails advertising?

What makes advertising advertising, and how is it different from telling people about this thing you made that they don't know about but might add value to their lives? I don't know, but I suspect it has something to do with fuzzy concepts like social capital.

[dwaltrip]

You are forgetting some really simple cases like:

1) My friend has one

2) I saw one at a party or work function

3) I was at the store a while back, browsing around (of my own volition), and learned about them

I could go on, but you get the idea. There are very many ways to learn about new things other than overt advertising. If we are being lenient, it's actually not too different from asking "how does culture spread and evolve?" Humans have been doing this stuff for thousands of years.

To address the second half of your post, I do agree 100% that it's impossible and unreasonable to draw a really hard line against all advertising. But I think we can certainly do way, way better than we do now.

[superuser2]

>1) My friend has one

Having your product out in the world with a brand name on it is a form of advertising, and it works really well because people don't recognize it as such.

Some people do recognize it, which is why they'll do stuff like de-badge their cars, to avoid being an agent of the "my friend has one" or "I saw one" form of advertising. My grandparents found this terrifyingly insidious and tried to be cognizant of and reject it whenever possible. Now we all wear logos without a second thought.

>3) I was at the store a while back, browsing around (of my own volition), and learned about them

Manufacturers jockey with retailers for prominent shelf space (or shelf space at all) as part of their advertising efforts.

Similarly, a storefront with signage in a heavily (foot) trafficked area is one of the most expensive (per impression) ad placements that money can buy.

[dwaltrip]

> Having your product out in the world with a brand name on it is a form of advertising

I didn't say the product had a branded logo on it. Many products do these days, but not all.

It's not hard to imagine a world where logos aren't everywhere. Even today, I don't buy clothing with prominent logos.

You are completely missing my broader point here. Advertising is a small, superficial part of culture. People have participated in culture for thousands of years, acquiring items and ways of doing things. They don't need advertising to do this.

[EdHominem]

> How did you know you wanted a Bluetooth speaker, or that such a thing exists?

Because I want a speaker and my phone supports Bluetooth.

> you knew what speakers are, and you knew what Bluetooth is

Umm, yeah. And if I didn't know what Bluetooth was I'd still know I wanted a speaker. The fact that my phone supports it - even if I didn't know what it was - would lead me to wanting a speaker that supported it.

> If I make a better mousetrap, but then tell no one and never leave my farm, will the world beat a path to my door?

The ads proclaiming best mousetrap ever, never are. So from my PoV all I lose by you not advertising is another rip-off.

Try renting the mousetraps with a "Purchase if we catch X mice per month" agreement. Prove their efficacy instead of spewing empty words.

> but the devil is in the details. Is [...] advertising?

An argument that there are shades of gray isn't a valid answer for the complaint that people enthusiastically push the boundaries of black-hat.

> What makes advertising advertising, [...]? I don't know, but I suspect it has something to do with fuzzy concepts like social capital.

The fact that someone pays to force it on you. Also, that the people writing the advertising would say anything for the sale, rather than being honest.