[pm90]

> This is exactly why people are railing against H1Bs so hard. How can you even suggest that an h1b be used for an entry level job?

Because all your friends and former classmates can't code even if their life depended on it. I went to school in one of the best CS programs in the country. Believe me: there are all kinds of outreach programs, high school outreach programs etc. to get more Americans involved in Tech. And while there are more Americans in Tech, the demand far outstrips supply.

[rdtsc]

> Because all your friends and former classmates can't code even if their life depended on it.

Everyone's experience varies of course. I have interviewed kids regularly from all tiers of US universities (most recently CMU). As a rule I found an international Masters student has a much better chance of failing the basic coding exam than an American-born BS graduate. Also I noticed when it comes to top students, American students overall come ahead in our interview process.

[pm90]

I'm not talking about CS students at US universities. I am talking about average joe college graduate who is apparently working in a Starbucks after college.

[unprepare]

so you are making an assumption that no one who graduates with a CS degree has had to get a part time job?

are you serious?

[dxhdr]

> Because all your friends and former classmates can't code even if their life depended on it.

How about a little on-the-job training? Let's be honest, the real issue isn't talent. These H1B applicants are willing to sacrifice their lives for your company whereas your average entry-level American engineer may prioritize something else.

[pm90]

Bringing someone over to the US on a H1B is an expensive, time consuming, mind-numbingly long affair. The only companies that I see doing that is if they have no other options at all.

[Chris2048]

expensive relative to the savings of competing on the market?

"time consuming, mind-numbingly long" doesn't matter much if it's in your business model to do this at scale. In fact, it would be an explicit competitive advantage.

[dragonwriter]

> And while there are more Americans in Tech, the demand far outstrips supply.

What is this supposed to mean? That there is no market clearing price where the supply curve and the demand curve intersect, such that at any wage level demand exceeds supply? Or just that the politically (because also economically) powerful buyers prefer lower prices than that market-clearing price, and so want government action to lower the price?

[pm90]

> What is this supposed to mean? That there is no market clearing price where the supply curve and the demand curve intersect, such that at any wage level demand exceeds supply? Or just that the politically (because also economically) powerful buyers prefer lower prices than that market-clearing price, and so want government action to lower the price?

Demand and supply curves don't work well when the thing in demand is skilled people. You cannot ramp up the number of skilled engineers immediately when demand shoots up.

edit: missed a "don't"

[Chris2048]

> demand far outstrips supply

and this difference is what drives wage. Every time you try to reduce the gap, you drive down wages.

> can't code even if their life depended on it

No, there just isn't enough money willing to proactively train more people. The outreach programs can take an unlimited amount more funding.

If you are claiming that there is literally a shortage of people that can be trained below loss for most of the IT industry, I'd like to see more evidence.

[pm90]

> and this difference is what drives wage. Every time you try to reduce the gap, you drive down wages.

I'm not going to argue any more on this reasoning at all. I have explained quite clearly why this kind of thinking is incorrect and hasn't worked so far and won't work in the future either. See my peer comments.

> No, there just isn't enough money willing to proactively train more people. The outreach programs can take an unlimited amount more funding.

> If you are claiming that there is literally a shortage of people that can be trained below loss for most of the IT industry, I'd like to see more evidence.

I don't quite understand what you're trying to say here. Of course my evidence for shortage is anecdotal. You seem to agree that the demand outstrips supply and so far Americans have not taken up CS in large enough numbers to satisfy that demand. That is my only "evidence".

[Chris2048]

> See my peer comments.

I've seen them, don't find them convincing, but will respond to those.

> my evidence for shortage is anecdotal

I'm not entirely sure which anecdotes, unless you explain your personal experience.

> You seem to agree that the demand outstrips supply

yep

> and so far Americans have not taken up CS in large enough numbers to satisfy that demand

Maybe. CS grads aren't the only source of software developers; but in any case, there is nothing wrong with demand being higher than supply, it's perfectly fine that demand be unsatisfied in the same way it's fine that supply be unsatisfied.

[unprepare]

> Because all your friends and former classmates can't code even if their life depended on it.

I'm just gonna end it here, im not interested in having a discussion with you. Have a good one, hope your mood improves to the point where you aren't calling random strangers friends and family incompetent!

[pm90]

Usually I don't give comments like yours the dignity of a reply but it seems like even the best of people in this forum have latched on to certain incorrect ideas, so I'm gonna try one more time.

I wasn't saying your friends and family are incompetent, I was saying they are incompetent programmers, at least right now. I don't believe that everyone can or wants to do software engineering for a living, just like not everyone can or wants to be a chef, or a pilot. Its really important to understand that we can't retrain everyone to fulfill certain roles.

[Chris2048]

> they are incompetent programmers, at least right now

So train them. They will want to be trained and fill those roles if the salary is high.

> I don't believe that everyone can or wants to do software engineering for a living

Why can't they? Offer easy entry, and the promise of a high salary, and more people will want to do these jobs. If everyone got to do what they wanted, we'd have a surplus of firemen and veterinarians, and few accountants and garbage men.

[pm90]

> Why can't they? Offer easy entry, and the promise of a high salary, and more people will want to do these jobs. If everyone got to do what they wanted, we'd have a surplus of firemen and veterinarians, and few accountants and garbage men.

I'm not gonna argue too much on this since people seem to have set their minds on it. Having personally taught in American high schools as part of various outreach programs...I can say that, no, programming is not something you can "train" everyone into. Sure, there are some with aptitude for it, others without it who do want to learn and can be "trained" as you say. But you need to rethink the whole public education system from a very early stage to make it easier for students to be good learners and ultimately good programmers.

> easy entry, and the promise of a high salary

Its already there, yet....crickets.

[Chris2048]

> people seem to have set their minds on it

You're not wrong, people are just stubborn?

> programming is not something you can "train" everyone into

Would you be as happy to conclude that teaching isn't something everyone can do?

If there is some general failing with the entire educational system, "immigration" won't fix that; but this is a tractable/solvable (if difficult) problem if foreign countries are able to produce good students.

> Its already there

Is it? What counts a "high", outside SV? Why are SV wages limited to SV?

Previous posters describe CS majors working for Starbucks/McDonalds - if entry is easy, how could this be?

[pm90]

> Previous posters describe CS majors working for Starbucks/McDonalds - if entry is easy, how could this be?

They most certainly do not...please read the actual post. The post says their college graduate friends...not graduates in CS. Anecdotally, I haven't seen any American with a CS degree be out of job for a very long time unless they were doing something really wrong (i.e. not applying/following up with interviews).

> Would you be as happy to conclude that teaching isn't something everyone can do?

Hah, good point. I am willing to concede I might be a terrible teacher. But if we go along this path, where do you stop? You are trying to find fault in the system, in the teachers etc...essentially looking for a reason other than the most obvious conclusion: not everyone can or wants to be a programmer. Like I said, I do agree with this reasoning though: perhaps if we change the system to have better teachers, a better education system that makes CS more appealing, perhaps there would be more CS graduates.

> If there is some general failing with the entire educational system, "immigration" won't fix that; but this is a tractable/solvable (if difficult) problem if foreign countries are able to produce good students.

Immigration is not meant to fix your education system. They are not mutually exclusive: you can do both. The real reason foreign countries are able to produce good students is an interesting one; personally I get the impression that one of the major reasons is their sheer size ~3 billion people in Indian and China alone. However, one of my friends has correctly pointed out that the 3rd largest foreign student community in US universities after Indian and Chinese is: Korean.

[unprepare]

I wrote a whole long thing, but i think its much better to just illustrate my point.

You claim that H1B's:

1. can and should be used for entry level positions, because it is impossible to find entry level employees for programming

2. companies are completely unable to fill programming positions with US employees.

So lets investigate those claims then. Well, good place to start is probably looking at the top job titles of H1B visa holders.[1] Turns out the number 1 title by far, is 'Programmer Analyst' kinda vague, so lets try to dig in and see what that really is.

To do that, we can look for the top H1B visa employers[2] that appears to be Cognizant at 15,680 in 2015, followed by Infosys and TATA.

Well now that we know who the top employer of H1Bs is and what the top job title is, should be pretty easy to find an open position on their job board, right? Then we can look at the requirements for the 'Programmer Analyst' job and see what exactly is so specialized that no US college graduate is capable of accomplishing.

Weirdly, even though they filled over 33,000 of this job merely 2 years ago (an average of almost 100 jobs filled per day!) There is only 1 single job posting for a 'Programmer Analyst'[3]

Even weirder! the requirements for this job:

>Requirement: Basic computer knowledge, Good Communication skills and willing to work in night shifts

Well, that doesnt seem like such a demanding position to me....

Infosys had 0 job listings under that same title, TATA's careers site has no job listings at all[4]

But yeah, maybe you are right, maybe its just a coincidence that the top H1B job title has only 1 single listing across the top 3 H1B visa employers. Better keep letting them hire immigrants, since those stupid college grads 'cant code to save their lives' as you so put it.

[1]http://www.myvisajobs.com/Reports/2014-H1B-Visa-Category.asp...

[2]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H-1B_visa#Top_H-1B_employers_b...

[3]https://cognizant.taleo.net/careersection/1nacorp/jobdetail....

[4]http://www.tata.com/careers/index/Career

[pm90]

Let me repeat that I am not denying the existence of H1B fraud. I am saying that H1B can and should be used for entry level positions as well. And if there are companies abusing the system, as you point out, they are breaking the law. They should be prosecuted and stopped.

[unprepare]

an H1B visa is specifically for someone in a "Specialty occupation" and very specifically requires experience in the field.

>(3) 12/ For purposes of section 101(a)(15)(H)(i)(b1) , the term `specialty occupation' means an occupation that requires--

>(A) theoretical and practical application of a body of specialized knowledge; and

>(B) attainment of a bachelor's or higher degree in the specific specialty (or its equivalent) as a minimum for entry into the occupation in the United States.

So, since 'Entry Level' means someone without experience in the field - the H1B visa clearly does not apply to them.