[cortuso]

I think it's $130K, which is 2x as much as before. It's senior level salary in IT (and I think for lawyers and MD's it's not starting salary either), in some cases/states Principal level. I would not invite H1B on that position, I would get one from local market for that amount of money. If you follow the line: it simply says do not use H1B more. Plus, what international student will do once he completes the college, and with quarter of million in debts (say Bachelor only) ? As is now, H1B. Will you hire college fresh grad for 130K ? Don't think so. So...who will come to the college from overseas to study and brig their passion and ideas on this land ? This is USA, this IS a country made, constructed and developed by excellence and hard work of immigrants with their hopes and dreams. Cutting that idea off, putting the country and society in the mood of "preservation", could result in dangerous outcome, as society is not ready for that. This is not Europe and will never be, the rules that work there are not applicable on this land. There is no a notion of "nation" in USA, there is no such thing. It's just a colony of immigrants moved away from their homes to build something they could not there. This is a dream land, this is an opportunity land and should remain such for everyone.

[cpursley]

> I would not invite H1B on that position, I would get one from local market for that amount of money

Are you suggesting that a $130k floor for H1B workers would undermine the practice of undercutting local workers?

[cortuso]

It's hard to predict what will really happen. Some businesses will hire more IT personal overseas, to amortize the costs and avoid H1B application at all. Some will start really searching for a local talent with higher price (that's what this idea is meant to do I guess). But considering that IT reports constantly shortage on candidates, a big gap indeed, regardless top notch universities, makes me think it's not about problem of lack of open positions, what this new idea aims to solve, it's about a will to do that job or not. Still, I'm talking about IT sector. In other areas of life things may be way different.

[unprepare]

anytime you hear "shortage of candidates"

you need to append "at the wage we are offering"

at 1 million per year, do you think there would still be a shortage? how about 500k?

Salaries are so bad in IT compared to development that I decided a couple months ago to start making the transition. I cant reasonably continue pursuing a career trajectory that i know will make me less money, and that is not valued by organizations.

add to this the demands for IT jobs:

certifications (costs hundreds of dollars per, need to refresh them every year or two)

experience with laundry lists of technologies (i.e cisco networking experience is apparently not valid if this employer uses juniper/pfsense/etc.)

probably the worst hours in the industry (yes devs get pagerduty, its not comparable)

compare that to:

literally no certification requirements (dont even need a high school diploma for many places)

much better hours

add to that substantially better pay, and its a real wonder why there is a 'shortage of candidates'

[Roboprog]

Possibly they might look at hiring outside of the Bay Area in such exotic locations as Boise, DesMoines, Minneapolis, Detroit or other places where they have recent college graduates who would have been motivated to study STEM fields.

[cpursley]

There's places outside of the Bay Area? Blasphemy!

[Roboprog]

Yeah, you're right. We're all a bunch of stupid-heads in Sacramento, good for nothing but doing CRUD in COBOL++ (aka Java) :-)

[rdtsc]

> I would get one from local market for that amount of money.

Wait, why? Are you implying foreign workers are not competent and can't be exceptional? Surely it isn't that?

Otherwise, sounds like then H1B will finally work as intended, you'd be able higher exceptional people from overseas who might not be available in your area? Maybe there is a distributed systems expert from Argentina or a compiler writer from Ghana. For you to reach out to another country, they'll obviously be very qualifies and demand a decent salary.

> Plus, what international student will do once he completes the college, and with quarter of million in debts (say Bachelor only) ?

Go home or get a $130k salary if he is qualified. International student acceptance doesn't somehow guarantee or imply a continuation of stay based on employment. There is (or was) an work program where they can work in the industry as co-op / intern for a year or two. That can probably be expanded.

> Will you hire college fresh grad for 130K ? Don't think so.

Yes I would! There can be exceptional graduates. I have seen and interviewed some. Google / Facebook / Microsoft already pays that much for good graduate and more.

> This is USA, this IS a country made, constructed and developed by excellence and hard work of immigrants with their hopes and dreams.

So if they do such good work we should reward them appropriately by paying them a competitive salary. H1B should not be a way to bring in cheap labor. You can argue there should be other visas for that but H1B shouldn't be that one. And somehow you are tying it to hopes and dream. What about the hopes and dreams of develops working in US?

> There is no a notion of "nation" in USA, there is no such thing.

That is completely bogus. There is a strong notion of a nation here precisely because there is ethnic, religious or other history. If anything Americans are criticized for over-emphasizing their "Americanism".

> It's just a colony of immigrants moved away from their homes to build something they could not there. This is a dream land, this is an opportunity land and should remain such for everyone.

Well if this is a dream surely we don't want ruin that dream for those who are here and suppress their wages.

[pm90]

Really? From your handle, I did think you were among the more nuanced members in this forum. I guess this issue cuts too close to your heart though.

> Yes I would! There can be exceptional graduates. I have seen and interviewed some. Google / Facebook / Microsoft already pays that much for good graduate and more

Yes, and they are the exception not the rule. American tech sector is not just limited to these companies. And not just to the bay area where such salaries are common.

> So if they do such good work we should reward them appropriately by paying them a competitive salary. H1B should not be a way to bring in cheap labor.

60k is NOT CHEAP LABOR in most parts of the country! Please consider that outside of major cities, it is a pretty decent salary, especially a great starting salary.

> That is completely bogus. There is a strong notion of a nation here precisely because there is ethnic, religious or other history. If anything Americans are criticized for over-emphasizing their "Americanism".

I think the OP mean more along the line of patrimony and culture that is common in the Old World. While Americans might beat their chest and proclaim their uniqueness, they have existed as nation for just over 300 years, while the culture of Europe and much of Asia goes back thousands of years.

> Well if this is a dream surely we don't want ruin that dream for those who are here and suppress their wages.

Precisely. So don't.

[rdtsc]

> I guess this issue cuts too close to your heart though.

Yes it does. I have seen H1B being abused enough times. I was also an international student.

> And not just to the bay area where such salaries are common.

You know what else I have seen, lots and lots of very competent, driven, and smart American students. Also interviewed them. The idea that there are none and we have to hire from overseas using a visa process is ridiculous.

> 60k is NOT CHEAP LABOR in most parts of the country!

You are right there. I agree with that part in general. But if it is not cheap and is a decent salary, there should be no problem filling it with American laborers. Computer Science degrees and education has become more popular. I don't see H1B workforce as being immensely and uniquely qualified such that it would be impossible to find anyone in a country of 300M+ people with top universities in the world. If there are such cases, I posit $130k is a low end start for their salaries.

> While Americans might beat their chest and proclaim their uniqueness, they have existed as nation for just over 300 years, while the culture of Europe and much of Asia goes back thousands of years.

To be specific I was replying to the critique that Americans don't have a standing when talking being a "nation" and using that as an argument. 300 years is certainly enough reasons to form a national identity. I think it is silly claiming "You don't have a right to change your H1B visa rules because you are not a nation". Even as an immigrant, that feels a bit over-board.

H1B visas are about filling labor shortages with exceptional talent, that is their goal. Over the years that seems they have been perverted from anything from "Let's help international students who graduate to immigrate" to "I need indentured servants to work for me for X number of years".

[pm90]

> You know what else I have seen, lots and lots of very competent, driven, and smart American students. Also interviewed them. The idea that there are none and we have to hire from overseas using a visa process is ridiculous.

It isn't that there are none, the problem is that there aren't enough. And instead of hypothesizing, just look at how oversubscribed the H1B visa is and how many people come in via other work visas (e.g. L1).

> You are right there. I agree with that part in general. But if it is not cheap and is a decent salary, there should be no problem filling it with American laborers. Computer Science degrees and education has become more popular. I don't see H1B workforce as being immensely and uniquely qualified such that it would be impossible to find anyone in a country of 300M+ people with top universities in the world. If there are such cases, I posit $130k is a low end start for their salaries.

Wrong. I can't believe how common this idea that "free market will fix everything!" is on HN. It is making more US students consider CS/Programming as a career, but even in a nation of 300M+ people, they aren't graduating in large enough numbers. (I can go on about the specific reasons but lets deal with the relevant facts instead of throwing numbers around. One could argue why a country with 16000M+ people, India, won not a single gold medal at the last olympics). Simply changing lowest salary to $130k wont magically fix it, just like $60k presently is not fixing it.

> To be specific I was replying to the critique that Americans don't have a standing when talking being a "nation" and using that as an argument. 300 years is certainly enough reasons to form a national identity. I think it is silly claiming "You don't have a right to change your H1B visa rules because you are not a nation". Even as an immigrant, that feels a bit over-board.

Thanks for clarifying that. I agree, the US is a nation in the canonical sense. I think the OP was pointing out more to the critical contribution of immigration to American growth and prosperity.

> H1B visas are about filling labor shortages with exceptional talent, that is their goal. Over the years that seems they have been perverted from anything from "Let's help international students who graduate to immigrate" to "I need indentured servants to work for me for X number of years".

This is another untruth, where the world "specialty" is misused. Lets go to the definition[0]:

"Generally speaking, a job is a specialty occupation if the occupation normally requires a bachelors degree in a related field of study. Jobs in fields such as engineering, math, and business, as well as many technology fields, often qualify as a specialty occupation."

So basically, most engineering jobs are "specialty" jobs and using H1B is perfectly legal and right way to do them.

I absolutely agree that there is a problem with bodyshops abusing the system. But the solutions offered so far DO NOT, WILL NOT solve those problems.

[0] https://www.uscis.gov/eir/visa-guide/h-1b-specialty-occupati...

[Chris2048]

> the problem is that there aren't enough

By what measure?

> just look at how oversubscribed the H1B visa is

What is your interpretation of this? Who would turn down the chance of cheap labor even without a shortage?

> I can't believe how common this idea that "free market will fix everything!" is on HN

This is an exaggerated characterisation; but to some degree it is necessary to rely on market principles, given how complex the economy is.

> even in a nation of 300M+ people, they aren't graduating in large enough numbers.

Demand is high. Why is the population count relevant? People are choosing other career paths, which means there isn't enough incentive to choose IT.

> One could argue why a country with 16000M+ people, India, won not a single gold medal at the last olympics

You could, and why not? Are you implying India is incapable of producing gold-medal winning athletes?

> Simply changing lowest salary to $130k wont magically fix it

Not overnight, might it might in the long run. Why wouldn't it?

> But the solutions offered so far DO NOT, WILL NOT solve those problems

You mean the bodyshop abuse? Won't a minimum wage requirement fix it?

[pm90]

> What is your interpretation of this? Who would turn down the chance of cheap labor even without a shortage?

The labor is not cheap. I have already explained this.

> Demand is high. Why is the population count relevant? People are choosing other career paths, which means there isn't enough incentive to choose IT.

It isn't. I bring it up because the parent brought it up. I think we are in agreement here.

> You could, and why not? Are you implying India is incapable of producing gold-medal winning athletes?

Most certainly not.

> Not overnight, might it might in the long run. Why wouldn't it?

I have already explained this. Please don't ask the same question for me to give the same answer. The only reason I am replying is because you seem to be genuinely interested in an open-minded discussion about this issue.

> You mean the bodyshop abuse? Won't a minimum wage requirement fix it?

No, I don't mean the bodyshop abuse. The problem: not enough Americans to fill vacancies in tech sector. That is the problem that this solution won't fix.

[unprepare]

>especially a great starting salary.

This is exactly why people are railing against H1Bs so hard. How can you even suggest that an h1b be used for an entry level job?

meanwhile record numbers of american college graduates are finding part time work at mcdonalds and starbucks.

Sure wish some of my friends and former classmates could get 60k/yr jobs, instead of 24 hrs/wk @ 8.25 an hour. But no, its because tech companies are literally unable to fill these positions! i swear!

[pm90]

> This is exactly why people are railing against H1Bs so hard. How can you even suggest that an h1b be used for an entry level job?

Because all your friends and former classmates can't code even if their life depended on it. I went to school in one of the best CS programs in the country. Believe me: there are all kinds of outreach programs, high school outreach programs etc. to get more Americans involved in Tech. And while there are more Americans in Tech, the demand far outstrips supply.

[rdtsc]

> Because all your friends and former classmates can't code even if their life depended on it.

Everyone's experience varies of course. I have interviewed kids regularly from all tiers of US universities (most recently CMU). As a rule I found an international Masters student has a much better chance of failing the basic coding exam than an American-born BS graduate. Also I noticed when it comes to top students, American students overall come ahead in our interview process.

[pm90]

I'm not talking about CS students at US universities. I am talking about average joe college graduate who is apparently working in a Starbucks after college.

[dxhdr]

> Because all your friends and former classmates can't code even if their life depended on it.

How about a little on-the-job training? Let's be honest, the real issue isn't talent. These H1B applicants are willing to sacrifice their lives for your company whereas your average entry-level American engineer may prioritize something else.

[pm90]

Bringing someone over to the US on a H1B is an expensive, time consuming, mind-numbingly long affair. The only companies that I see doing that is if they have no other options at all.

[dragonwriter]

> And while there are more Americans in Tech, the demand far outstrips supply.

What is this supposed to mean? That there is no market clearing price where the supply curve and the demand curve intersect, such that at any wage level demand exceeds supply? Or just that the politically (because also economically) powerful buyers prefer lower prices than that market-clearing price, and so want government action to lower the price?

[pm90]

> What is this supposed to mean? That there is no market clearing price where the supply curve and the demand curve intersect, such that at any wage level demand exceeds supply? Or just that the politically (because also economically) powerful buyers prefer lower prices than that market-clearing price, and so want government action to lower the price?

Demand and supply curves don't work well when the thing in demand is skilled people. You cannot ramp up the number of skilled engineers immediately when demand shoots up.

edit: missed a "don't"

[Chris2048]

> demand far outstrips supply

and this difference is what drives wage. Every time you try to reduce the gap, you drive down wages.

> can't code even if their life depended on it

No, there just isn't enough money willing to proactively train more people. The outreach programs can take an unlimited amount more funding.

If you are claiming that there is literally a shortage of people that can be trained below loss for most of the IT industry, I'd like to see more evidence.

[pm90]

> and this difference is what drives wage. Every time you try to reduce the gap, you drive down wages.

I'm not going to argue any more on this reasoning at all. I have explained quite clearly why this kind of thinking is incorrect and hasn't worked so far and won't work in the future either. See my peer comments.

> No, there just isn't enough money willing to proactively train more people. The outreach programs can take an unlimited amount more funding.

> If you are claiming that there is literally a shortage of people that can be trained below loss for most of the IT industry, I'd like to see more evidence.

I don't quite understand what you're trying to say here. Of course my evidence for shortage is anecdotal. You seem to agree that the demand outstrips supply and so far Americans have not taken up CS in large enough numbers to satisfy that demand. That is my only "evidence".

[unprepare]

> Because all your friends and former classmates can't code even if their life depended on it.

I'm just gonna end it here, im not interested in having a discussion with you. Have a good one, hope your mood improves to the point where you aren't calling random strangers friends and family incompetent!

[pm90]

Usually I don't give comments like yours the dignity of a reply but it seems like even the best of people in this forum have latched on to certain incorrect ideas, so I'm gonna try one more time.

I wasn't saying your friends and family are incompetent, I was saying they are incompetent programmers, at least right now. I don't believe that everyone can or wants to do software engineering for a living, just like not everyone can or wants to be a chef, or a pilot. Its really important to understand that we can't retrain everyone to fulfill certain roles.

[Chris2048]

> I did think you were among the more nuanced members in this forum

What does this mean?

[unprepare]

it means "i wouldve guessed (based on your username) you were smarter than i know believe you to be"

Its an insult, not really hackernews quality, as almost all of this users comments in this thread have been an attack on someone. I dont know if this person had a bad day, or if they are always so unbearable and condescending.

see also:

>all your friends and former classmates can't code even if their life depended on it

>Usually I don't give comments like yours the dignity of a reply

>I was saying they are incompetent programmers

>I have already explained this.

> The only reason I am replying is because ..

[jordanb]

> I would not invite H1B on that position, I would get one from local market for that amount of money.

So you're saying the incentives would work as intended..

[cortuso]

Again, my understanding of IT market, is that shortage of candidates Silicon Valley, and not only, so complains about, is because there are NO local candidates willing to take that job, and not because "all those indians steal our young grads jobs". If by saying "So you're saying the incentives would work as intended" you mean minimum salary wage will raise because of that, don't think so.

[unprepare]

> NO local candidates willing to take that job

>not because "all those indians steal our young grads jobs"

Yet we have record numbers of college graduates working at starbucks and other hourly employers.

Do you honestly believe that college graduates would rather work at starbucks or mcdonalds than a tech company doing IT?

[jamesmp98]

Well now that C.S. is "hip" it's a pain to land a junior job. I'm no graduate, but I am a self taught (albeit) hobbyist developer doing it for a few years now working as a part time stocker for $8.00/h because junior jobs A) Don't exist. or B) Have stupid requirements.

[cortuso]

In our company we have struggle to get applicants to apply. Junior, or Senior. May be it's our company, but in general I would agree that H1B should be meant for experienced personal. What is happening now, companies are getting qualified labor (years of experience, Masters/Phds) from overseas for $60K. Nice and shiny. My point is that this, most likely, will not open more entry level positions, or make companies willing to pay more for entry level engineer.

[arca_vorago]

"There is no a notion of "nation" in USA, there is no such thing."

Oh you mean other than the revolution we fought to be the first nation in the world to establish a secular government based on the principles of natural rights and natural law? This pisses me off something fierce to hear people want all the benifits of the country but not want to learn basic citizenship duties and responsibilities.

Our nation is the Constitution, and you don't know what you are talking about.

[googletazer]

>I would not invite H1B on that position, I would get one from local market for that amount of money.

Sounds like the effect is exactly whats intended then

[devmunchies]

> There is no a notion of "nation" in USA, there is no such thing

Yeah ok, buddy. Try that line when you don't wanna pay taxes.

[msabalau]

The term "nation" typically means a collection of people with a common culture and ethnicity. The "Poles" are a nation, Poland is a state. That's why the the term nation-state exists, and contrasts with, say, empires composed of multiple nations. Canada, for example, traditionally described as a binational state, is now typically identified as a multicultural state, with some Québécois disliking the change in emphasis.

Americans as a people are united in sloppily mishandling the term "nation", mostly because it doesn't really apply to us.

[devmunchies]

America absolutely has a culture. Have you never lived in another country?

Our houses, cars, schools, music, food, pass times, athletics, language (slang, dialects), entertainment, government, habits, communication (verbal, body language), aspirations, societal expectations, humor, things we find offensive/inoffensive, etc.

[msabalau]

Britain has a culture, despite being composed of the English, Scots, and Welsh nations as well as many immigrants.

One can, of course, feel entirely free to use words in arbitrary ways. But to correct someone (who clearly understands the correct usage of the term nation) with the nonsensical notion of a nation imposing taxes is odd.

[ygaf]

I'll admit to learning from your definition of nation just now. Sucks that I went well into adulthood never learning the proper meaning of a basic word. On the bright side, google has just given me the green light to continue using 'country' and state interchangeably.

Americans sloppily mishandle a lot of things. That's a common culture right off the bat ;) in addition to everything devmunchies said.

[msabalau]

To be fair to all of us Americans, nationality, even when when you understand what the term means, is still a sloppy concept, with porous boundaries inviting people to contest any particular usage. And that's putting aside aside any (perfectly appropriate) metaphorical usage i.e. "nation of immigrants".

Anyway, hope that you find the definition useful going forward.. For example, the title "Birth of Nation" is clearer, even if the substance of the movie remains evil nonsense.

[Chris2048]

> a collection of people with a common culture and ethnicity

google says:

> people united by common descent, history, culture, or language

You added "and ethnicity", are you saying a nation can't be composed of multiple ethnicity?

And does it really matter? America is a country.

[InitialLastName]

To be fair, Americans are also united in sloppily mishandling the term "state", mostly because it (arguably) no longer applies to us the way it used to.

[refurb]

I think it's $130K, which is 2x as much as before.

I think you need to get out of the Valley. It's come up on HN before how $125K+ salaries might be common in SV, but not in other areas of the US.

Make the salary floor $130K and only SV will get to hire H1-Bs.

[gnopgnip]

The salary floor is just the floor at which you do not have to prove you advertised in the US for the position first. Also the current bill proposed in the house would allow bonuses and equity to be considered party of the salary. So you could offer someone $65k a year in salary and $65k a year in stock with 4 year vesting without having to advertise the position in the US first.