[refurb]

Jesus Christ. The President said that people from Mexico have come to the US and committed crimes including rape. Is that untrue? If it is true, should we be letting them in?

He also said that he would block any immigration from Muslim countries until those people could be fully vetted. You only need to look at the Paris, German and UK attacks to see the consequences of not doing that.

Neither of those sound all that unreasonable to me.

[viraptor]

That's not what he said though. Specific quote: (you can find many sources)

> They’re bringing drugs. They’re bring crime. They’re rapists… And some, I assume, are good people.

Which is a much stronger claim than what you wrote.

> Is that untrue? If it is true, should we be letting them in?

It's true that some people moved from country X to country Y and committed crime Z, for almost any chosen X, Y, Z. Yes, US should be letting people in. Just as other countries should be letting Americans in.

We don't have ability to read minds and predict the future. The best alternative you have is past statistics and unless you've got statistics that show rape is a really disproportionate between country X and the US, (and even that needs a lot of context besides numbers) this claim is just repeating bad stereotypes.

Or in case you want a specific example that works the other way: "Americans are child murderers (just look at school shootings) and drug abusers (look at number of jailed for drugs) and some, I assume, are good people. Other countries shouldn't let Americans in if they don't want those problems."

[mjolk]

> Yes, US should be letting people in.

Wait, why? My understanding is that the rhetoric was specifically about illegal immigration. Why should the US not police its borders or its people lose the ability to make decisions on immigration?

[viraptor]

Depends... there are at least two things to think about.

One is: do you really think that it's feasible to build such wall, staff it with people, 24/7 monitoring, uninterrupted power, etc. etc. (seriously, think about the geography of the region and how insanely huge that project would have to be and how much would it cost) or is the wall just a name for general direction which will affect everybody? Border rules are usually there just to stop people you don't want, but they do affect many others as well because of process issues.

Second: If either an actual wall, or some kind of extra restrictions come into play, even if aimed at just the illegal immigration - what effect would it have on the legal movement? What effect would it have on ratios of criminals -vs- others? For example, even crappy treatment from TSA discourages people from flying. Extra restrictions may discourage a family going on (legal) holidays. But will it really discourage drug trade, where people already risk their lives as it is?

[mjolk]

At what point did I suggest that a literal wall is the solution?

> what effect would it have on the legal movement?

Why would it have an effect? The process to come to the United States is well-documented and there are US tax-payer backed services to help guide people through the process. From direct experience, it's a predictable, bureaucratic machine.

> But will it really discourage drug trade, where people already risk their lives as it is?

Possible, because tighter controls or deportations of people in the US against its laws clamps down on the support structures needed to help coordinate and support trafficking. However, illicit drug trade isn't the only negative effect from illegal immigration -- there's also a lowering of domestic wages, increased burden on social services, and human health risk as illegal immigrant peoples are hesitant to engage the police or housing services when major issues arise.

[viraptor]

> Why would it have an effect?

Chilling effect. Just in this thread, you can find 4 people who say they avoid flying to/through the US because of treatment at the border. You can add me to that list as well for the next 4 years. Those decisions don't exist in a vacuum - if you introduce restrictions in one part of the process, people will notice.

[mjolk]

> Chilling effect. Just in this thread, you can find 4 people who say they avoid flying to/through the US because of treatment at the border.

The internet is a hyperbolic place. There's nothing saying those people would have come to the US anyway.

> You can add me to that list as well for the next 4 years.

With the lack of introspection happening in my political party, you might want to double that estimate.

[FireBeyond]

> The process to come to the United States is well-documented and there are US tax-payer backed services to help guide people through the process. From direct experience, it's a predictable, bureaucratic machine.

All you need is luck (lottery), love (maybe), a job, and, on average, about $25K available for immigration fees alone.

[Chris2048]

> a specific example that works the other way: "Americans are child murderers (just look at school shootings) and drug abusers (look at number of jailed for drugs) and some, I assume, are good people. Other countries shouldn't let Americans in if they don't want those problems."

The problem with the example is it is purely qualitative, not quantitative.

Yet, I notice, in comparison to Trumps quote you tacked something on the end:

> Other countries shouldn't let Americans in if they don't want those problems.

Did Trump suggest all Mexican immigration end forever?

[viraptor]

> The problem with the example is it is purely qualitative, not quantitative.

That could be interpreted in many ways. Could you explain what you meant by that?

> Did Trump suggest all Mexican immigration end forever?

I don't know. And I don't see how it's relevant to this discussion. I haven't mentioned "all" and "forever". Sounds like a straw man argument.

[Chris2048]

Qualitative, as in, that something us without scale or magnitude.

Quantitative, as in, with quantity such that different qualities can be compared wrt relative magnitude.

You're original statement was that other countries "shouldn't let Americans in". If this doesn't apply to all, and forever, then it might be comparable to Trumps quote.

[cha-cho]

Was it "their rapists" or "they're rapists" that he said? One makes sense in the context, the other makes people outraged.

[zardeh]

No, he said (and this is a direct quote):

>Donald J. Trump is calling for a total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States until our country's representatives can figure out what is going on,

He later walked this claim back, but the statement was originally a ban on immigration by anyone of a given religion, not anyone from certain territories. Those claims were later walked back by other republicans, but the original claim made by Trump was for a ban on all Muslim immigration (which is on its face unconstitutional).

[refurb]

That's not a quote from Trump, but rather a quote from an article describing what he said.

This is what he said:

"When Mexico sends it people, they're not sending their best. They're not sending you. They're sending people that have lots of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people,"

Now I'm not going to defend the delivery. I don't think Mexico "sends" people in general, but it may happen (e.g. Mariel boat lift).

However, if the message is that bad people from Mexico are getting into the country and that should stop, I don't think anyone could argue that. Could it actually be stopped? Probably not, but it's worth trying.

[soundwave106]

FYI the quote on Muslims is a direct quote from his website.

https://www.donaldjtrump.com/press-releases/donald-j.-trump-...

[wang_li]

>ban on all Muslim immigration (which is on its face unconstitutional).

There are plenty of respected and knowledgeable legal scholars who disagree.

[zardeh]

I can find literally 0 constitutional lawyers who agree with this statement. The only people I can find who believe it might be constitutional are non-constitutional laywers quoted by Breitbart. Every other article I looked at (and it was >20) had multiple people stating that a religious test would be unconstitutional, and that the only leg they might have to stand on was that an immigrant not allowed into the US wouldn't have any way to sue the US government to raise the issue in the court system.

[wang_li]

Prior to writing my response I did a brief search and in less than five minutes found multiple such people. Here are some:

1. Eric Posner - http://ericposner.com/is-an-immigration-ban-on-muslims-uncon...

2. Peter Spiro & David Martin - http://www.politico.com/story/2016/11/donald-trump-muslim-re...

3. John Banzhaf - http://lawnewz.com/high-profile/president-obama-is-wrong-on-...

And here (http://blog.constitutioncenter.org/2015/12/constitution-chec...) is a discussion that points out that it's a complicated question and "led some scholars to the confident conclusion that a flat ban on Muslims would now be upheld, without judicial interference."

[zardeh]

1. "It would raise complicated questions, but might not be unconstitutional, if only because of bad precedent"

2. Isn't referring to a ban on Muslim immigration, but on a registry, which is a whole different beast

3. Banzhaf isn't a constitutional Lawyer, he's the one quoted by breitbart, btw, and what he glosses over is the very relevant 'detrimental to the united states' aspect of the Plenary Powers doctrine. It is much easier to make an argument that we should suspend immigration from a state we are at war with than from a religion, since it is practically impossible to make the argument that Muslims are more detrimental to the united states than Christians or Atheists.

and your fourth article concludes by saying

>It does seem reasonably clear that, if a proper challenger could be found, the courts very likely would be open to hear their claim. And it would not be a sure thing that they would lose in that forum.

[wang_li]

1. A more accurate restatement of what Posner wrote is "It's probably constitutional and any argument the other way has an uphill struggle." When it comes to constitutionality, SCOTUS precedent is not good or bad, it's simply is reality.

2. Fine, my bad.

3. Him being quoted by Breitbart means nothing. I mean Obama has been quoted by them. Clinton has been. Pretty much every single prominent Democrat politician has been. The only thing that is exposed by saying "breitbart" is that you disagree with the right.

And on the fourth, exactly. I'm not arguing whether it's constitutional or not. I'm saying that anyone who says that it's unconstitutional on it's face is full of it. It's clearly not obviously unconstitutional as people who study the constitution and work in the field feel that it could go either way.

[pikzen]

The Paris attackers were French. So were the Nice ones. They were third generation immigrants. Are you suggesting to vet all of these? If yes, you've got some work ahead of you, considering your country is one of immigration.

[refurb]

You can't stop them all, so why even try? Is that your argument?

All the 9/11 hijackers were on visas. They should have been stopped from coming in. At least one of them was.

[pikzen]

No, I was just pointing out that linking your arguments to Paris attacks was complete crap and that you ought to check your facts of you want to give any credibility to your arguments.