[viraptor]

That's not what he said though. Specific quote: (you can find many sources)

> They’re bringing drugs. They’re bring crime. They’re rapists… And some, I assume, are good people.

Which is a much stronger claim than what you wrote.

> Is that untrue? If it is true, should we be letting them in?

It's true that some people moved from country X to country Y and committed crime Z, for almost any chosen X, Y, Z. Yes, US should be letting people in. Just as other countries should be letting Americans in.

We don't have ability to read minds and predict the future. The best alternative you have is past statistics and unless you've got statistics that show rape is a really disproportionate between country X and the US, (and even that needs a lot of context besides numbers) this claim is just repeating bad stereotypes.

Or in case you want a specific example that works the other way: "Americans are child murderers (just look at school shootings) and drug abusers (look at number of jailed for drugs) and some, I assume, are good people. Other countries shouldn't let Americans in if they don't want those problems."

[mjolk]

> Yes, US should be letting people in.

Wait, why? My understanding is that the rhetoric was specifically about illegal immigration. Why should the US not police its borders or its people lose the ability to make decisions on immigration?

[viraptor]

Depends... there are at least two things to think about.

One is: do you really think that it's feasible to build such wall, staff it with people, 24/7 monitoring, uninterrupted power, etc. etc. (seriously, think about the geography of the region and how insanely huge that project would have to be and how much would it cost) or is the wall just a name for general direction which will affect everybody? Border rules are usually there just to stop people you don't want, but they do affect many others as well because of process issues.

Second: If either an actual wall, or some kind of extra restrictions come into play, even if aimed at just the illegal immigration - what effect would it have on the legal movement? What effect would it have on ratios of criminals -vs- others? For example, even crappy treatment from TSA discourages people from flying. Extra restrictions may discourage a family going on (legal) holidays. But will it really discourage drug trade, where people already risk their lives as it is?

[mjolk]

At what point did I suggest that a literal wall is the solution?

> what effect would it have on the legal movement?

Why would it have an effect? The process to come to the United States is well-documented and there are US tax-payer backed services to help guide people through the process. From direct experience, it's a predictable, bureaucratic machine.

> But will it really discourage drug trade, where people already risk their lives as it is?

Possible, because tighter controls or deportations of people in the US against its laws clamps down on the support structures needed to help coordinate and support trafficking. However, illicit drug trade isn't the only negative effect from illegal immigration -- there's also a lowering of domestic wages, increased burden on social services, and human health risk as illegal immigrant peoples are hesitant to engage the police or housing services when major issues arise.

[viraptor]

> Why would it have an effect?

Chilling effect. Just in this thread, you can find 4 people who say they avoid flying to/through the US because of treatment at the border. You can add me to that list as well for the next 4 years. Those decisions don't exist in a vacuum - if you introduce restrictions in one part of the process, people will notice.

[mjolk]

> Chilling effect. Just in this thread, you can find 4 people who say they avoid flying to/through the US because of treatment at the border.

The internet is a hyperbolic place. There's nothing saying those people would have come to the US anyway.

> You can add me to that list as well for the next 4 years.

With the lack of introspection happening in my political party, you might want to double that estimate.

[FireBeyond]

> The process to come to the United States is well-documented and there are US tax-payer backed services to help guide people through the process. From direct experience, it's a predictable, bureaucratic machine.

All you need is luck (lottery), love (maybe), a job, and, on average, about $25K available for immigration fees alone.

[Chris2048]

> a specific example that works the other way: "Americans are child murderers (just look at school shootings) and drug abusers (look at number of jailed for drugs) and some, I assume, are good people. Other countries shouldn't let Americans in if they don't want those problems."

The problem with the example is it is purely qualitative, not quantitative.

Yet, I notice, in comparison to Trumps quote you tacked something on the end:

> Other countries shouldn't let Americans in if they don't want those problems.

Did Trump suggest all Mexican immigration end forever?

[viraptor]

> The problem with the example is it is purely qualitative, not quantitative.

That could be interpreted in many ways. Could you explain what you meant by that?

> Did Trump suggest all Mexican immigration end forever?

I don't know. And I don't see how it's relevant to this discussion. I haven't mentioned "all" and "forever". Sounds like a straw man argument.

[Chris2048]

Qualitative, as in, that something us without scale or magnitude.

Quantitative, as in, with quantity such that different qualities can be compared wrt relative magnitude.

You're original statement was that other countries "shouldn't let Americans in". If this doesn't apply to all, and forever, then it might be comparable to Trumps quote.

[cha-cho]

Was it "their rapists" or "they're rapists" that he said? One makes sense in the context, the other makes people outraged.