[laddng]

I'd like to propose a different yet slightly related stream of thought.

One month last year, I decided to restrict my usage of lights (house lights, digital screens, ect.). What I would do when I came home from work around 6pm was do one last clense of my emails and then shut everything off. I would turn off all the lights in my house and light candles instead.

It was amazing how my sleep patterns changed. By just having candle light in the house from 6pm to 7am, I was able to easily and calmly fall asleep by 9pm after spending a few hours cooking dinner and reading books. My sleep changed to a point where I would slightly wake up at 4am and then gently fall back asleep for another couple of hours.

My productivity levels during the day were better thanks to the deep sleep I got.

Just thought I would share that experience here for those who don't have the luxury of shutting off the internet for a month, but can do a retreat every night to bring yourself back to a natural, calm state of mind.

[wpietri]

Excellent. I've been trying a related experiment for the last couple of years. I put a bunch of Philips HUE bulbs in and wrote some software to control them:

https://github.com/wpietri/sunrise

For anybody who uses use Flux, this is basically like that but for my home. Since I'm prone to SAD-like symptoms, I keep it set on summer time: the lights come on dim and red at 6 in the morning, gradually brighten to a high color temperature white during the day, and fade during the evening, going completely out at 10.

I thought the main benefit would be waking gently in the morning, and that's fine. But really, the best part is the dimming light in the evening. I gradually get tired and go to bed easily; I sleep a solid 7-8 hours every night. Like you, I'm generally well-rested and productive. My mood is also more even, and I've had little or no seasonal melancholy. I've also kicked caffeine and don't miss it.

I recommend it highly.

[edejong]

Using openhab 2, some scripts and a couple of zwave lightbulbs with adjustable color temperature, I've created something very similar. The lights turn on automatic using presence detection and change temperature using a simulated sunset. I'm working on a ray-tracer, simulating a true sunset, which would allow different lights to produce various parts of the spectrum. The problem lies with the bulbs, which do not allow enough fidelity over RGBW (either color or warm light, not both).

[wpietri]

Ooh, that sounds cool. Could you tell me about how you did presence detection?

[edejong]

Wifi and owntracks in combination with calendar events.

[rorykoehler]

Great to see this.. I contemplated doing a similar project last year but never got around to it. Looking forward to trying Sunrise out.

[najra]

Awesome, been looking for something like this for a while! Guess I'm going to need some hue lights :)

[tqkxzugoaupvwqr]

I wonder how much of this is due to the candlelight and how much due to not actively consuming content from a lit screen. I had a similar experience without candlelight. I use warm LED lights in the evening. When I don't use a laptop/phone/tablet I fall asleep much earlier. I guess just using such a device keeps the brain active, and the light it emits is enough to delay melatonin production, causing terrible sleep cycles.

[pmyjavec]

I've experimented with lamps and candles for better sleep. It seems devices and television give me sleeping problems more than anything else, even using flux etc.

One really positive change I made in the past is to put my phone in another room for overnight charging. Having devices next to the bed isn't the best idea for sleep or relationships :)

[strainer]

Due to an eyesight problem I run everything on dark background including theme, editors and web. I'm not sure if this makes me sleepy, but it is possible to try it. The best firefox addon for dark browsing is > https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/dark-backgrou...

[celdon25]

I've been doing the dark backgrounds for years, due to being farsighted. I recently switched to a high-contrast theme, and it is way easier on the eyes. I think not all dark themes are equal when it comes to amount of work the eye muscles have to do.

[strainer]

I see, kinda ;) I musn't grumble about my condition, just thought it relevant that its quite possible to try working in a dark background to see if it affects sleep cycle.

[keithpeter]

I suspect the curfew on screen activity may be the deciding point, at least it is more me. I just stop using devices after about 8 or 9pm many evenings and read/talk or listen to music.

Bedroom is for sleeping (etc) and not for reading/updating whatever so I go to bed at around 11pm to midnight.

[wapz]

Can I ask if you're a developer and if you do side projects? I get home at 9pm everyday (leave at 7:30am) and the only time I have time to do side projects is from 10:30pm - 11:30pm (and of course I have trouble sleeping). I can't figure a better way to do this. I've tried on the train commuting to work but during the 2 hour commute I got maybe 30 minutes of work in due to being squished, lack of a mouse, and a 10" screen to work with. I also tried waking up at 5am but that just didn't cut it for me because I would be too exhausted in the morning.

[stefek99]

I hear your pain.

Some "common sense" suggestions: - move closer to job - work sane hours - change your job - arrange flexible hours with managers to travel off-peak

Something "controversial" - there were some threads about nootropics - some people say it's a "zero sum game" - taking credit from your brain bank account... Look at Modafinil (over the counter from online pharmacies).

[mikekchar]

Second the off-peak suggestion. The other thing you can do is to experiment with alternative ways of working. I have a 13" laptop that I do all my programming on. No other monitors. It fits in my man-purse and I can program virtually anywhere. As I am a remote developer and like to be around people sometimes, I really do program anywhere. The bus and train have actually become one of my most productive places, and sometimes I wish I could afford to program on the train all day.

I find it helpful to use a text-only interface and use tmux along with a tiling window manager. But basically, learn how to use your computer without a mouse. It takes a long time to get comfortable with this setup, but it pays incredible dividends when you finally do (well... for example 2 hours of your life back every day).

With the off-peak thing, one suggestion would be to get to bed super early and take the first bus/train in. This tends to be the least susceptible to problems. It's also easier to sell the boss on the idea of starting at 6 am rather than 11 am. The trick is to have the internal fortitude to leave at 3 pm. Assuming you work in the city and live further out, this should allow you space on the bus/train to work.

[wapz]

Thanks for the great suggestions. When I get home and after finishing the home tasks, I go to my desktop (standing desk) and full-sized keyboard, large monitor, etc. That's probably why the times I've tried to code on the train have been quite unproductive. Our company doesn't allow flex hours so unfortunately that's currently not an option. I'll try out a larger laptop and see if it works (and if I can do all my work on it so I'm used to it).

[FatalBaboon]

You should find a job closer to home, or move out. 2h of commute is savage.

I don't accept more than 1h commute total per day, or ask for remote to compensate.

[tonyedgecombe]

To be honest I think your priority should be to fix your commute.

[3chelon]

Some commutes just can't be fixed. It's easy if you're single and rootless, but once you have kids, schools, other people's jobs and lives to consider, it becomes exponentially harder.

I commute just under 2 hours each way to London. All the work is in London. I used to live in London when I was younger. I would rather jump off a bridge than live in London now.

The way to compensate is by working partly remotely. That way you get to enjoy the place you live at least part of the time.

[keithpeter]

Just wondering: is that total commute as in home -> London -> office?

Up here in sunny Brum: you could be back up from London in 1h30 on a Pendolino and still live in a leafy suburb (15 min local train from New St gets you to the half acre garden territory).

[tqkxzugoaupvwqr]

If you can’t move closer to your job, the job could move closer to you[1].

[1] May require changing jobs.

[tonyedgecombe]

"Some commutes just can't be fixed."

We all make choices, mostly they can be undone.

[graeme]

How do you do this: bulbs with changeable temperature? And what colour?

[tqkxzugoaupvwqr]

With “warm LEDs” I mean their color temperature, not their physical temperature. See the Wikipedia article on color temperature[1].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_temperature

[graeme]

Yes, I know. I was wondering if you had those GE bulbs that can adjust their colour temperature based on time of day, or whether you had separate lights with warmer colours for night.

[dorfsmay]

Do you still do this? Have you looked at low wattage lamps? There are serious risks of starting apartment/house fires with candles, please do not underestimate them.

[ashark]

After I tried the same thing for a couple weeks and really enjoyed it, I looked for the closest thing to a pair of candles in a holder that I could think of: a small, hand-portable, battery powered (ideally something standard and replaceable) lightly shaded lantern/lamp that gave off pretty close to the same light as the pairs of beeswax candles I'd been using, which were just about the perfect amount of light. Hard to read by one candle, easy by two, three would be OK but heading toward too bright.

I found nothing in that sort of form factor that wasn't far too bright, and all of them were LED (incandescent would be much nicer). I just want a little battery-powered lamp that takes a weak nightlight bulb. Seems like it should exist.

[EDIT] after writing this I tried "portable nightlight" on a whim and that search does return things kinda like what I want, though they're all LED and in form factors that wouldn't be too pleasant to carry around. So close, but not quite.

[laurieg]

If you are still looking you could buy a flashlight with a diffuser (a kind of translucent cone that slips over the end). On modern flashlights you can adjust the brightness to many different levels. LED technology has also come along a long way, with much more natural shades of light, or even yellow shades if you want to mimic a candle.

If you need specific advice I recommend the r/flashlight community on reddit.

[ianai]

I started doing this a while ago. Then lapsed back to the usual. I bought a rechargeable portable lamp that's dimmable. It has a great impact on my sleep when I use it properly. I want one that's more diffuse like a candle though.

I really hope this is the start of a backlash against the backlight and pay to play.

[explainthisth]

How about this? https://www.amazon.com/Philips-Light-Works-Amazon-Alexa/dp/B...

[ashark]

$70, and $60 of that is buying Hue/Alexa functionality that would require other Hue and Alexa stuff to use it (so more money), which I don't have and don't want. Plus it's LED, and it's not easy to carry around.

I just want a 4 watt incandescent nightlight light bulb (or similar) on a small mount with a handle or grip of some kind, the ability to stand up on its own, and battery power. Should cost $10 or less, if it exists.

[gknoy]

I realize this sounds silly, but I like the fake-candle LED lights that are about 2.5 inches in diameter. I don't know what brand we have, but these [0] look similar. One is (barely) enough to read with at bedtime, but two or three might work great. At two AA batteries, my kids can leave them on all night, and the tiny LED hasn't drained much. (I think I change batteries maybe every couple months.)

- Can read OK with one, probably fine with two or three - 2x AA batteries; rechargeable ones work fine. - Easy for kids or parent to hold/transport - LED circuit flickers, seeming more like candle light. Probably not as good as the pattern you saw linked on HN last year. ;)

The real wax texture is both weird and cool, but the down side is they scratch easily. I wish I had them in plastic, honestly, but now that the kids have wrecked the surface I no longer care as much. ;)

https://www.amazon.com/Flameless-Candles-Remote-Control-Pill...

[okreallywtf]

This. I would recommend anyone interested take a look at a kerosene lamp [1] (not sure if "lamp oil" that you can get is still just kerosene) but they've always had a similar effect on me. The color is nice but they are plenty bright to read by. I grew up with them and find them very calming but they are a little more stable and the flame is not totally open. You might be able to get away with less of them than candles as well making it safer. I would recommend nodding off and leaving it going all night but it won't melt and tip over by itself, it would likely just keep burning until it ran out of fuel or the wick burned out.

[1] https://www.amazon.com/Lamplight-110-Chamber-Oil-Lamp/dp/B00...

[mixmastamyk]

Cheap candles give off fumes, how are these in that department?

[okreallywtf]

I've never noticed them have fumes but I think it probably has to do with the fuel too. I think the clear fuels are maybe ideal, check out http://homeguides.sfgate.com/safely-use-oil-lamp-house-84155... and google around.

[vcool07]

Assuming you are single ? Doubt if you can pull off such hacks with a family. For most married folks, second shift (a.k.a housework) starts after 6 PM !

[davidvaughan]

Just so. The reality for most people is that other people are the primary consumers of attention. So the problem is rather old.

[nabla9]

Using f.lux or other similar software gives some of those advantages too.

https://justgetflux.com/

[johndoe4589]

Yes it's become very clear to me recently that to fall asleep more consistently I have to quit fiddling on the PC AND have to stop reading the iPad a good hour before sleep. (edit: basically, have to get into a "disengage" mode just relax and watch the telly or the Chromecast :) ..)

Oddly enough then, a TV screen just 2m away is fine, but reading on the iPad close to my face isn't and will keep me awake.

So I think the recipe for better sleep schedule is a combination of wllingly disengaging from the mental activity involved even in light browsing, as well as the light exposure. The first is much more significant. Think of it as some "zen" / meditation / "be present" time before bed. A good hour for me. I usually don't even care what's on the telly / chromecast, I watch Twitch and even when the hosts are noisy I can fall asleep.

It' a good time to point out that the f.lux solutions and the one included in iOS is just for comfort and does absolutely SQUAT to help you get to sleep.

TLDR

So disengaging from the dopamine feeding activity that sadly most apps are designed for nowadays, that is the key. A good hour before expected bedtime for me.

And I can really feel it in my body as well, stress settling down. Tip: put a heavy blanket on your lap to help you unwind, the pressure and warmth stresses you down.

The KEY here that seems to be missed is that the light exposure late at night is related to the mental activity, often dopamine inducing activity of surfing or playing games. Think about it, why else would you expose yourself to a glaring light late in the evening? WHat purpose? The only reason we do so is to scroll the Twitter feed, read the news, click yet another link to another webpage, and on and on.

[mooreds]

"No impact man" is a great book that covers some of this territory as well.

[laddng]

Thank you for the recommendation - I will add it to my reading list since I've been curious to learn from other's experiences trying the same thing.

[mooreds]

He covers a bit more than just living in sync with the seasons and daylight; in general he is striving to live in the modern world with "no impact".

[TheTrueTDF]

I thought your experience was beautiful until you justified it by "It made me so much more productive !". What is productivity worth compared to calm and resting nights of sleep ? Is it not deeper, more important than any productivity hack ?

[lixquid]

For some people, deep sleep itself doesn't "feel" fulfilling, and justify it as simply dead time in 24 hours.

A lot of people quickly reverse that sentiment once they try having a consistent schedule of high quality sleep.

[devoply]

A proviso about this: Don't burn down your house with candles. Some people do this.

[digler999]

many local fire departments have had to escalate high-priority bug reports due to the uncommanded actions of lit candles.

[lend000]

This is awesome. The effect of light on our biology is truly incredible -- I have a bad habit of not being able to get to bed before 12am, even if I want to (I know many here will scoff at that), but when I go camping and I'm without unnatural light, I'm exhausted by 9pm and wake up at sunrise. My sleep cycle adjusts the first day.

When I use a campfire, I usually stay up significantly later, which is interesting. Just because the light is "natural" does not necessarily mean it's natural to have the light at a certain hour.

[vog]

Won't reading a book in candle light hurt your eyes, at least in the long run? How many candles do you use at once to get a healthy illumination for reading?

[oskarth]

This is a great idea. How did you read with candles? I found it difficult the few times I've tried, but maybe that's because I mostly read in bed. Do you read sitting at a table with the candle right next to you? Do you have multiple candles?

[mikekchar]

I went for a few months without lights at night as part of an experiment. I found that 3 candles with a reflector made from aluminium foil was enough light to read by. But it's dangerous. Another thing I tried was to buy some solar powered garden lights and charge them during the day. This provided about an hour of reading light in the evening. Probably you could build something very much more effective (and it would be quite fun to boot).

[jankotek]

Candles produce smoke, it is like sleeping next to a cigar.

[markyc]

and eat up oxygen

[jacobush]

Did you read by candle light?

[sean_patel]

DUPE: Previous discussion [Fri the 13th] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13392292