[BinaryIdiot]

Considering every phone I've tested (iPhone 5S, iPhone 6+, Samsung Note, Moto X, Nexus 6P) with 7 different bluetooth headphones (ranging from cheap Amazon ones to expensive LG) I have NEVER found a phone, paired with headphones, that stayed connected especially when the phone is in my side pocket and I'm walking in an open space which seems to make connectivity significantly worse.

For instance getting on the BART being an enclosed space? I never have an issue. All of the headphones I've tested stay connected the entire time without issue. The SECOND I walk out of the station, even in the city, every pair of headphones I've tried work most of the time but typically cut out once every 30 seconds or so. But it's crazy inconsistent because I managed to walk to my office, once, the entire way without it disconnecting.

Seeing as bluetooth 5 helps with range I'm hope I can finally using it to keep my phone in my side pocket and actually listen to my headphones, uninterrupted.

[pdx]

Getting 2.4GHz through the human body is hard. The human body is mostly water, and bluetooth is, after all, the same frequency of your microwave oven, which uses 2.4GHz because it's in a band of frequencies from 1-20GHz that water absorbs.

When you're indoors, you don't need to get bluetooth through your body. You're getting reflections off of nearby walls and ceilings which allow your bluetooth devices to communicate across your body, but without going through your body.

When you're outdoors, you no longer enjoy the benefit of reflected RF, and the design of the phone and the headset antennas needs to be very good, so the RF can make it through your body.

It is a hard problem, but a lot of headset manufacturers do achieve it. I'm surprised you still haven't found one that's acceptable. Of course, it's body dependent. Petite women will have less issues then large men, as the RF just has less water to travel through with them.

Today's bluetooth is limited to 4dBm max transmit power for class 2. Bluetooth 5 will be 20dBm, which is a lot more power. This is, actually, the same power that class 1 bluetooth devices now have, so I'm unsure why they brag about the higher power of bluetooth 5, but to be sure, most bluetooth devices now are not class 1.

The higher power will make even bad antenna engineers be able to get bluetooth through your body, but more importantly, you'll enjoy larger range when you are at the gym or in your home. Also, if you worry about RF effects on the human body, your worry can increase now as well!

[qdot76367]

I work in adult toy design/consulting, and radio/antenna design is actually a HUGE problem there. Trying to figure out how to build antennas for mobile-connected wireless adult toys (versus the cheaper < 1ghz radio toys that just come with a remote) that can work in a myriad of situations is a big problem that's delayed some products, killed others. Any glitches on those products usually guarantees online comment/review anger and that it'll never get used again.

[joshschreuder]

Sounds like an interesting job, how did you get into it?

[qdot76367]

I started https://metafetish.com (NSFW, and when I started it was https://slashdong.org) in 2004, as a hobbyist kinda blog about the engineering behind adult toys. Almost 13 years later now and I'm still at it. Things just built up over the years to where my name kinda became synonymous with certain topics. Consulting has always been a smallish side-gig, because the industry is not a great place to make cash, but damn if it ain't constantly weird and interesting.

[choward]

It's actually a really easy problem to solve with a cord. I have this exact same problem with bluetooth. I have to put my phone in my sweatshirt pocket or in a higher pocket in my backpack or it cuts out.

But thanks for the explanation. This is good to know. I'll plan my walk to and from work through alleys instead of open parks. Because thinking back, it always works in alleys.

[pselbert]

This was a magnificent explanation, and precisely the kind of comment I hope for when reading HN. Thank you for taking the time to share.

[Thimothy]

If I were you, I'd try to forget it as soon as I can, becouse it's wrong. 2.4 GHz is not in the water absortion band (I'd show you a nice graph, but I can't find one that goes to such low frequencies), a microwave would work as nicely in 1 GHz or 5 GHz, what matters is the H-O bonds, that are esentially electric dipoles and are excited when high-ish frequency and power hits them. You probably have noticed that fat heats much faster than wattr in the microwave oven, that is becouse is full of OH bonds, just as the GP is full of shit[1].

This is one of those moments when I wonder if most of the things I have learned in HN are bullshit, I'm usually struck with awe at the sapience of the HN hivemind too, but in times like this...

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_common_misconceptions#...

[danieltillett]

I don't think your comment is very constructive, but more importantly what the OP actually said is not wrong.

[pdx]

If you re-read my comment, you'll note that I only said that 2.4GHZ was in the 1-20 GHz band that is easily absorbed by water.

Engineers juggle multiple constraints, cost, size, power, and efficacy, and 2.4 GHZ choice was the result of the size of the magnetron that would be cost effective and physically fit into the oven. But it did, of course, have to be within the range of frequencies best absorbed by water, which 2.4GHz is, and which is why it's difficult to get bluetooth through your body.

[pdx]

Why don't you look at this link. I think it will prove your understanding is incomplete, and that water does have significant absorption in the microwave region of the spectrum.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_absorption_by_...

[ehnto]

I read the title, clicked the link and thought to myself, "alright HN, teach me something about Bluetooth"

The parent comment is exactly the kind of comment I expected and hoped for!

[ethbro]

Engineer's solution: drink less water when you want to use your wireless headphones (also, for a few days previous)

[paulddraper]

Also, become more similar to a petite woman.

[sangnoir]

> Also, become more similar to a petite woman.

This is the most diplomatic way to say "lose some weight" I have ever heard.

[karmacoda]

Use an umbrella.

[walrus01]

2.4 GHz is also extremely noisy in any urban area. If you ever get access to a real spectrum analyzer capable of 2350 to 2500 MHz, it's amazing.

[vocatus_gate]

What will the effect on battery life be?

[pdx]

The higher data rates are hoped to at least partially compensate for the higher power. You burst data at high power, but for less time. Also, there are retransmits that occur now, if a packet is corrupted. Higher power should result in fewer retransmits, which will help with battery drain. Battery life is hoped to be better, even with the higher power.

[mseri]

And on the body?

[pdx]

There are regulatory limits on how much RF a device can send into the body. These are called SAR limits [1] and they are not changing. I was joking about the body effects. The legal limit is not changing. But devices that used to be further below the limit, will now be closer to it.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specific_absorption_rate

[joshschreuder]

I picked up a pair of Bose QC35 a couple of months ago, and for my first pair of BT headphones I'm really impressed.

I use them almost every day on my way to and from work (roughly an hour each way) and I can count the number of interference issues I've had on one hand, and definitely not every 30 seconds. This is with an iPhone 7 and iPad Pro 9.7".

They're not cheap, but I'd highly recommend them.

[pkulak]

Second on the Quiet Comforts. I've owned more than a dozen BT headphones over my life and these are the best. Well, best BT implementation at least, I'm not much of an audiophile.

[alex8022]

I just got the Jaybird X3s, and paired with an iPhone 7+, haven't had an issue yet. Quite pleasantly surprised, considering all the bluetooth problems I've heard about online. Bluetooth works fine from back pocket, front pocket, coat, inside the house, outside, in the car.

[isaac_is_goat]

Can confirm, got the Quiet Comforts myself about a month ago and use them every day. Use them with my S7 Edge, Surface Book, cheap 20$ bluetooth dongle connected to my gaming PC and a fat 2012 13" MacBook hand-me-down at work. The only machine I have problems with is the MacBook, to the point where I'd rather just play music from my phone all day than fight with it.

[kayoone]

I've had similar experiences with a pair of Sony MDR-XB950BT which i had for about a year and a half. Super happy, actually i can't recall any connection issues, certainly not recurring but i mostly use them in the office and at home, sometimes also outside though.

[Bombthecat]

I use the backbeat pros with noise canceling.

The only issue I have is when I'm near high voltage transfer lines. Like near train stops for example.

[gadders]

I'd also recommend the Plantronic BackBeat Fit. Great connection every time.

I bought some PlugPhones on KickStarter, and the connection issues drive me up the wall.

[ricardobeat]

I have a cheap Bluedio Turbine (€25 on amazon) I've been using for a month without any issues whatsoever, phone in pocket, cycling, rain... plus I haven't charged the battery even once, 3+ weeks of daily usage in. I'd say bluetooth tech is getting quite amazing!

[NoGravitas]

I've read that those are exceptional value for the money until the plastic breaks...so maybe handle them gently!

[jansenv]

I've had a great experience with Bluebuds + iphone 6. The quality isn't perfect compared to wired but they are fantastic for the gym and such.

[matwood]

I'll need to test my BT headphones in a busier area then. I have an iPhone7 and $99 JLabs BT headphones and they only ever cut out if I go clear across the gym while my phone is in my bag. I'm going to guess that there just is not a lot of people using wireless in the gym at the times I'm there.

[tw04]

I've got Bose QC35 and Jaybird X2's. I use the jaybirds to workout, Bose for everything else - never had a problem with either one staying connected. Including being across the room from both, with the phone in my pocket. That encompasses a Nexus 6P and a Pixel.

[Swizec]

I've only used Jaybirds with my iPhone 5S and 5SE. Didn't even know this was an issue.

I suggest giving them a try. Phone in pocket has never been a problem for me, regardless of where I am at the time. The battery even survives a 4h+ marathon.

[kraftman]

On the flip side I've been using my bluetooth headphones every day for over 3 years and I've never had them cut out once, other than if I leave them on from my desk to the kitchen which is about 20 ft and through a few walls.

[dominicgs]

Bluetooth 5 extends the range and increases the data rate of BLE, but not both at the same time. This will allow you to stream high quality audio over BLE, saving power over regular Bluetooth, but you won't get the range benefit.

[ams6110]

Use a wire.

[intransigent]

Have you considered possible interference and noise introduced by other rival devices competing for the same spectrum?

This has been my hypothesis, considering the disruption patterns I've noticed.

At home, well removed from other possible bluetooth sources, I rarely experience signal cut-out, or choppy reception.

When I move into high traffic areas, the amount of signal loss skyrockets. The worst areas are areas with lots of cars in motion.

My hunch, is that noise, destructive interference, and fortuitous signals result in dropped packets. And cars especially, tend to broadcast stronger signals that outshine an handset/headphone channel, cause both ends of the connection to drop packets.

This is just based on observation. In crowded train stations and near busy roadways my headphones act like shit. I get the feeling it's the old "poorly shielded blender appliance ruins the t.v. reception" business, except the interference drops out in the same way progressive scan HDMI monitors glitch up without shielding.

I have no proof that this is the case though.

[hollander]

See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13126964

[whutwhatt]

See

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13128401

hint: both are possible, simultaneously. one does not contradict the other. each one is a different concern, with its own merits.