[chrisseaton]

> Fact 2: If you are loaned money to obtain a degree which is not economically valued then you will not be able to pay it back

But for the vast majority of jobs people don't care what degree you have! In technology yes you often want someone with a particular degree. But if you're hiring a civil servant, a advertising executive, a business consultant, or any one of hundreds of other jobs, you can have any degree you like.

I have friends with theology degrees who work in business and earn more than I do in technology with my CS PhD. The companies that hire them value having people with a very wide range of academic backgrounds.

[charlesdm]

And that is obviously ridiculous.

> I have friends with theology degrees who work in business and earn more than I do in technology with my CS PhD. The companies that hire them value having people with a very wide range of academic backgrounds.

That has nothing to do with their degree and everything with their ability. They would probably still get hired without the degree.

Degrees only really matter in formal subjects, if you're, say, studying to become a doctor. Attending a good university is not about the degree, it's about the network.

[nickik]

Its actually not ridiculous at all.

There is a lot of study on the idea that the main value of education is not what you actually learn but much more signal that you are dedicated, motivated and have the ability to learn.

There is a huge argument going on right now about how much of the value is signal vs actual knowledge you need for the job. There is a lot of evidence that suggest that signal is a huge part of the value.

Network does not really apply as a expiation because the effect appears even when transition to a place that you have no relationship with it.

If you are interested consider listening to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpk_u_VmPD4

(Be aware, this is a strong version of the argument, deliberately picked to break with the tradition view that many people have)

[charlesdm]

> There is a lot of study on the idea that the main value of education is not what you actually learn but much more signal that you are dedicated, motivated and have the ability to learn.

A signal, I can agree with that. But isn't that only because someone is unable to signal that (s)he can be a valuable asset in other ways? The type of person to only rely on their degree is probably a person that isn't creative enough to find more effective ways to market themself.

I think education is great and learning new things is massively important in life. I just personally don't believe in the degree fetish that a lot of people have. Just look at the quality of the average graduate in a lot of universities and/or colleges in the US and Europe.

To me, at best, a degree is an inefficient way to differentiate yourself from a group of similar people with similar skills. Maybe not a bad thing if you're at the start of your career. But at worst, it has zero additional value.

[nickik]

I basically agree with you, but there is just a lot of people that don't. In IT you can get pretty far, without a degree. I did so, and I am very happy with that choice.

I don't see that working for a lot of other people I know.

I think the US is approaching numbers where you might really be better of without a degree in a increasing number of fields.

[kesselvon]

Most places will not take your resume seriously if you don't have a degree attached. Startups tend to be more lenient sometimes, but Big Corp. isn't going to touch you without a degree, nor will you have a promotion path without one.

It's the reality of the situation, and until there's a significant change in attitude, not having "a" degree is going to hurt your career prospects unless you're a wildly successful entrepreneur or have great connections/independently wealthy.

[stale2002]

Well if that is the case, and the degree doesn't matter, then the government has no reason to subsidize 200k college degrees.

Just provide free community college to everyone for a 10th the price and call it a day.

[nickik]

Why should the provide anything if the argument is true.

If anything this argument would suggest that you should have a private system of education and the government should spend all this money on research grants for things that are interesting, and/or useful.

[chrisseaton]

I don't think they would get hired anyway.

As I said, their companies value diverse academic backgrounds. Not no academic background.

Let's look at some real jobs, outside the technology industry.

The UK civil service: "you need, or expect to have, a 2:2 degree in any subject or higher".

UK NHS project management role just requires "a degree" (the NHS is one of the biggest employers in the world).

Goldman Sachs graduate analyst "open to final year undergraduate and graduate level students from any field of study".

That's the reality. They don't care what degree, they just care about a degree. So if you're passionate about art history, get a degree in it. Almost nobody cares.

[charlesdm]

I’m not saying you’re not right, I just think it’s ridiculous. I've met plenty of people with various degrees (BS, MS, Phd) who are stupid as a rock, and I’ve met plenty without a degree who are well rounded individuals / smart as hell / can get the job done. That’s even outside of tech. In the end it really comes down to the individual.

Also, as an ability metric it’s an outdated one, and personally I would never pass on an employee just because (s)he doesn’t have a degree. Having a degree doesn't even mean someone will make a good employee. Results are infinitely more important than credentials. Most people just can't get stuff done.

[cloverich]

> Most people just can't get stuff done.

I know this is tangential, but after working in engineering for the last 6 years its absolutely mind blowing how much this is a factor. Smart, likable, normal people who just never get any real, meaningful work done seems to be the complete norm. Hiring people (not a position i'm presently in) is an absolutely terrifying prospect to me, because I can't figure out any real way to separate the former from the latter.

[maxsilver]

> That has nothing to do with their degree and everything with their ability. They would probably still get hired without the degree.

You would think that, and it would logically seem to work that way. But in practice, it often doesn't.

A lot of employers are lazy, and use "has a degree" as a filter to cut down their applicants. And since there are so many applicants in nearly every field, it doesn't hurt the employer much. The biggest value in many degrees is literally just the ability to truthfully claim "I hold a degree", regardless of the field.

- - -

To improve that, we'd need to get employers to drop fake requirements from their job listings. But since there's (typically) only benefits to them for inflating their requirements, I don't think it's likely employers will willingly drop that requirement.