[mantis369]

I don't understand the imperatives to make the machine thinner and increase battery life.

I would have paid for a 32 or even 64 GB model, but instead I'm going to delay my upgrade for 6-8 months so that I can see if something better than the new MBP comes along.

I am of the opinion that a Pro machine does not need to be the thinnest available model.

[w-ll]

Lets be honest; If you want 'Pro' you just gotta build a tower yourself.

IMO there is no such thing as a 'Pro' laptop. I've owned MBPs, XPSs, MSI Gaming Laptops, and they all fall short. Especially 6ish months later when I want some extra oomph but NO; Laptop; At best you can maybe upgrade RAM / Disk but thats about it.

For me, 'Pro' is being able to max out anything, swap parts/upgrade when I want or need to. And this is only possible with a tower, hell even a mini atx build can kick anything Apple is selling out of the water. And you will always be able to upgrade at your own pace / price point.

For portable, I like my Chromebooks and do like the Macbook Air. But for the Air you gotta buy it maxed out, and with the Apple extended warranty.

[basch]

>IMO there is no such thing as a 'Pro' laptop. I've owned MBPs, XPSs, MSI Gaming Laptops, and they all fall short.

You bought what I would all consider consumer laptops, and thusly feel 'pro' laptops dont exist? What you are describing are business laptops. Thinkpads, Latitudes, Precisions, Zbooks etc. You want a new wireless card, you can swap it in. Different screen model? if you venture outside the consumer market, there are varying levels of upgradability.

[w-ll]

I will give you that many brands outside of Apple will allow you to swap the wireless card, maybe another keyboard (still their keyboard), but never would I want to attempt replacing a screen in a laptop.

But this reminds me of actually the real reasone why laptops will never be pro.

Pro is in the Peripherals!!

My monitors, keyboard, and mice are all things im super picky about. And dont want tied to and priced into the core of my computer. I've used the same mouse for over decade (Microsoft Intellimouse). And keyboards, when I find a good one it will stick with me for a while, but always trying new ones. I have recently upgraded all my monitors to 4ks, but before that I was fine with my few year old proarts.

Apples trackpad is A+, but their keyboard is a F for me. Biggest Grip, the LCTRL key was at the most left key. When I use macs I always have to use the full usb wired keyboard because of LCTRL.

All the other brands trackpads and keyboards are B- at best.

These are things that no single vendor can satisfy for me, and the lockin that's required for laptops just absolutely will never make them first-class/pro machines for me.

Anecdotally, my father used to think I wasted my time 'playing with computers' when I was growing up. He'd tell me stories about how at my age he was building cars from junkyard parts. From a time long ago when you could build a beautiful car in your garage with any number of parts and some hacky engineering. Later in life, I was able to explain how my computers and software and art was very much like him building his hotrods, decorating them with flaming skulls, and I think he finally understood my interest.

If you like laptops for reasons that I dislike them, that's fine.I still wouldn't call them 'Pro' Every part of them deprecates faster than any parts that you used to build a desktop. Any and Every part.

Laptops offer nothing but faster turnovers for the brands that sell them.

[scholia]

True. Unfortunately, Apple discontinued its tower, and that leaves you with two out-of date systems -- the Mac Pro and the mini -- that are not designed to be upgradeable.

This is a problem with proprietary systems like Apple, where you have no alternative hardware supplier. If Apple doesn't want to make it, you can't have it (unless you can Hackintosh it).

[coderdude]

I'm not sure what they're optimizing for. If they had some bad ass machine that wasn't the thinnest machine in existence I'd still buy it. I own a pro and an air from the last generation and I think they suck. Give me something worth the bucks and tack on a few millimeters to make it happen. I absolutely will not pay for their current trajectory of lackluster stats and a small physical footprint. I need better. If that means bigger, they should get over it and deliver.

[nicky0]

If you need huge power why are you trying to do it in a laptop?

[lucaspiller]

That's not really the point - other manufactures make laptops that are much more powerful than Apple. The ThinkPad P50 can be configured with a Xeon, 4K display and 64GB RAM for nearly the same price as the base 15" MacBook Pro.

Ok maybe it doesn't have all day battery life - but most people, especially people who want "Pro" hardware, probably only need a few hours max.

I've had an Air for two years, and I don't think I've ever been in a situation where I've used the full battery - all international flights and trains I've been on have had power sockets, so I can charge on the go. Plus thanks to USB-C, you can use a power bank to charge your laptop if you need more power:

http://www.macworld.com/article/3028132/consumer-electronics...

Apple is no longer giving consumers a choice, before there was the MacBook (old one) if you wanted a more-affordable entry level machine, the Air if you needed ok performance but great portability, and the Pro if you wanted performance in a laptop package.

Now everything is lumped together with portability as the #1 priority. If Apple had just launched this as a new version of the Air I don't think anyone would be complaining so much.

[chrischen]

Other manufacturers don't make computers as good. If they did, you'd have bought one of theirs by now instead of complaining about Apple's offerings.

Part of the reason why they make bad computers is they cave and make design decisions based on what random users ask. Users who potentially have no knowledge or experience in system design.

As the famous quote goes, if you ask people what they want, they'd tell you a faster horse.

[gurkendoktor]

> Other manufacturers don't make computers as good. If they did, you'd have bought one of theirs by now instead of complaining about Apple's offerings.

That would be a reasonable conclusion if I could run macOS on these computers. If I could develop iOS apps on a Razer Blade without running a fragile Hackintosh setup, I would have ordered one already. (Plus a sticker to cover up the gross green logo.)

[lucaspiller]

Not sure why people are downvoting you, but yes you are right. That's the reason why so many people are frustrated about this. I don't want a "Dell XPS Pro" I want a Mac. I hope this model is just a stepping stone (apparently even the 13" has thermal support for current gen quad-core CPUs) for something a lot more powerful next year.

[eropple]

I downvoted him because PC manufacturers make really good laptops these days. It's not the days of hollow-body plastic things like the old Dell Studios (my last PC laptop, from about 2008). The world's caught up. I probably would already own a Razer Blade Pro if I wouldn't be embarrassed by that green thing on the lid. Sager makes really solid machines that feel good to use, too, and right now I'm strongly considering a Thinkpad P50.

Apple makes kind of above-average computers, and ones that fall down for current-day, up-to-date professional uses. They make a better operating system. The reason people are pissed is because Apple used to do both, and it's rapidly becoming the case that the lousy hardware and high prices aren't balancing out the operating system. If not for already being comfortable, it would probably be more effective for me to switch between Windows and Linux as necessary on PC hardware (both desktop and laptop) than to use OS X anywhere. That's why I'm probably going to have to switch, and that's why I'm kinda mad.

[scholia]

Dell XPS is a high-end consumer brand, like Apple. They can be used by professionals but they're not really pro designs.

Dell's professional brands are Latitude, OptiPlex and Precision. If you want a power-user workstation, you could have a look at the Precision line.

[coderdude]

Well, I'm tired of an employee coming up to me and saying "this thing is going so slow" and it's just Firefox and some other things open. The hardware can't keep up with today's software demands. Whether it's a memory constraint or otherwise. Apple today doesn't "just work". It's not like I'm asking my employees to render the next Toy Story. We're talking emails and opening pages in a browser.

I now do all my work on a beefy box running Ubuntu, as I did prior to my last year's stint in trying Apple hardware full time. I'm transitioning who I can onto similar setups and moving away from the laptop-as-the-main-computer setup. They just aren't good enough for it.

[scholia]

> I'm transitioning who I can onto similar setups and moving away from the laptop-as-the-main-computer setup. They just aren't good enough for it.

Beefy desktops also have much better ergonomics (unless laptops are used on a riser with an external keyboard etc).

This should mean fewer computer-induced injuries and fewer courses of expensive physiotherapy in the future.

I've needed two courses, after foolishly working full-time on laptops. As a result, I've gone back to desktops. The superior performance, lower prices, and the fact that they last much longer are extra benefits...

[Veen]

> he hardware can't keep up with today's software demands

Another way of putting this: modern software is so bloated and poorly designed that it wastes massive amounts of memory and processor resources.

[coderdude]

If you've ever used Firefox this isn't lost on you. However, it's a pitiful defense for a $1500+ computer.

[rocky1138]

As primarily a web developer this wasn't the case for me, but now that I'm essentially all in on VR the problem has become acute.

For the first time in a decade I went out and built a desktop.

[sadfsdfsadfsd]

Because we have to take our work with us? To meetings, to workspaces, etc. And, we're willing to pay a premium for high power, high portability.

I could probably go buy a big workstation/gaming style pc laptop, but I'd rather pay more for a lightweight model.

[coderdude]

This was exactly what I was shooting for, myself. I needed something powerful but portable. Ultimately what I got was very portable but not very powerful. "Time to reboot!" should not be part of the daily routine.

[arvinsim]

False dichotomy. Why can't there be a middle ground?

[nicky0]

Laptop form factor fundamentally goes against high power computing. It's very inelegant and I can see why Apple doesn't want to do it.

[zemo]

> I am of the opinion that a Pro machine does not need to be the thinnest available model.

the "pro" in pro just means "professional", as in "connected to one's profession". It does not mean "professional computer-user" or "professional computer programmer"; it does not mean "this is the most powerful thing on the market", it means "you can stake your livelihood on the reliability and versatility of this tool".

A lot of professionals use their laptop every single day for work, and they commute with it every single day. Lightening the load in your bag matters to a lot of professionals. Making sure you can get through an entire day of meetings on a single charge matters to a lot of professionals.

Anyway, if this sounds like apple fanboy apologism: I'm not buying a new MBP. I've even gone as far as turning down a free one from my employer. It offers me nothing over my existing MBP, which will in all likelihood be the last Apple laptop I ever buy.

The point is: this computer is not designed for programmers, and that's ok.

[freehunter]

When I switched from a Thinkpad W530 to my 2015 13" rMBP, I was able to fit my laptop in my backpack along with three changes of clothes. With one purchase, I was able to leave my suitcase at home and bring just one carry-on bag with me on business trips.

It was a game changer. I can get through airports quicker, I can pop my computer in and out of my bag anywhere I want. I can keep it on all day a client sites without having to plug it in. I only need to carry one bag with me when I travel Monday-Thursday. Prior to the MacBook, I was carrying a backpack with my laptop and a suitcase with my clothes, because they wouldn't fit together into a carry-on-sized bag. Now it's just one backpack.

I can't stress enough how much of an improvement that has had on my life. I wouldn't want to sacrifice anything: not a minute of battery life, not a centimeter of thickness, not a gram of weight. Every measurement matters when you're traveling.

[chrischen]

I have a laptop purely because it's portable. It has to strike the right balance between performance and portability of course. To counter your vocal opposition, I think the new macbook strikes that balance perfectly.

Longer battery life, and smaller battery also have benefits. Particularly, a smaller battery can be charged faster. Lower power consumption allows this, and their design decisions such as limiting RAM to 16 was made to achieve this.

I run a linux VM and do dev work and even on 8GB is fine. I'm a programmer, and technical guy, but I understand that Apple can still make better computer building decisions than me, or any other nerds who just like to ramp up spec numbers in their custom build PC.

[TheOtherHobbes]

8GB is most definitely not fine for anyone who works with media.

Considering the number of people who make YouTube videos, memes, SoundCloud tracks, web pages, blog posts, photo uploads and shares, and so on - that's a lot of users. 16GB means they're going to be waiting around the disk to thrash its way through a swap whenever they switch between applications.

My iMac has 32GB, and it's a bare minimum for comfortable thrash-free media creation.

Remember when media and creation was an Apple thing? That.

[moyta]

Not defending the MBP, but at least they have SSDs that can push 3.1GB/s [1] which is much better than most devices, esp. spinning rust. What Apple has done on the iPhones with their SSD's bus (moving off eMMC to a much faster bus) is also a big performance boosting move, really helps to keep RAM costs down now with the ongoing RAM shortage.

[1] - https://9to5mac.com/2016/11/01/2016-macbook-pro-ssd/

[hanief]

Because it's a MacBook; with batteries in it. The value is in the mobility. If you don't need the batteries and mobility, you could buy a Mac Mini, iMac or Mac Pro.

[eropple]

In 2016, "buy a desktop" is no longer the only answer when talking about professional work. Like--check out what Sager offers. You can buy a fully kitted-out 17" notebook from them that meets or exceeds the top-end iMac in every respect (equal CPU, twice the RAM, significantly better GPU) except pixel density (a mere 170 versus 216) for a thousand dollars less than the top-end iMac--and you can carry it with you.

It's not uber-thin and light, no; this is a literal desktop replacement and weighs twelve pounds. It's not the machine I'd buy, because I don't need a GTX 1080 in a portable machine--but that machine is equivalent to Apple's best, actually-serious desktop while being cheaper and portable! It goes without saying that you can scale down to something that's a little more reasonable for a physical-effort-averse nerdy type and still get something that's very favorable compared to Apple's offerings, both in terms of perf and price.

Apple missed the memo: you really can have both, these days. Maybe they don't care about that audience anymore, and that's their prerogative, but it's why I'm probably bouncing back to Windows/Linux. (Dual-booting. Ew.)

[mantis369]

But they didn't upgrade the Mini, iMac, or Mac Pro. The Mac Pro has been the current model for at least two years. The iMac is a hack that uses two logical display panels to produce the 5K resolution, because there isn't enough bandwidth for a single one. The Mini is nearing the 3 generations old mark.

[tomwilson]

Why even mention the way the iMac display works? Using the machine you would never know and its a very nice computer. The complaints about the mini and pro are legit but there is barely anything to complain about with the iMac.

[gurkendoktor]

It will matter once Apple decides to drop support for the current iMac. (Who knows, maybe the ARM switch will eventually happen? The G5 iMacs became obsolete over night when the Intel switch happened.)

As it stands, you can neither recycle it as an external display nor can you run Linux on it at full resolution.

Not really a "pro" complaint - just something to keep in mind if you plan to hand it on.

[pier25]

> The Mac Pro has been the current model for at least two years

It was released in October 2013, so more than 3 years.

[slantyyz]

>> Because it's a MacBook; with batteries in it. The value is in the mobility.

For some people. But you can also look at a laptop as being the ultimate "all-in-one" PC.

The only cable you need to plug in is the power cable. For a lot of people, that's more convenient than having to deal with a monitor, keyboard, mouse and desktop with the associated mess of cables and added desk space. That a laptop is portable and runs on a battery is gravy.

[audunw]

> I don't understand the imperatives to make the machine thinner and increase battery life.

Then why all this fuzz? Why did the MacBook become so popular among professionals and programmers?

It's certainly never been the most powerful laptop on the market.

I'm not sure people are willing to admit it, but I think the reason the MacBooks have been so popular, even among programmers, is precisely because they've always pushed the boundary on being thin, sleek and portable.

Maybe you don't think the few mm they shaved off this time matters. But if they didn't have this attitude, they would still be the same size and weight they were 20 years ago.

[ld00d]

I really appreciate the thinness of my current MBP when I haul my previous MBP around. I wonder though, where's the limit on this move to thinness? At what point do they stop balancing it with the other things we like about these machines? I've already lost some travel in the keyboard. I'm not too excited about the newer keyboards with considerably less travel.

[coob]

> I am of the opinion that a Pro machine does not need to be the thinnest available model.

Good, because it isn't: http://apple.com/macbook