[domfletcher]

I think you're right about the need for debate around how identity politics can be better expressed and that is a debate that seems to have been slightly suppressed on the left. I would say two things about why I don't think this is a good reason to support Trump:

1. The situation you describe is fundamentally about freedom of speech vs the right not be be offended. Trump is not an advocate of freedom of speech and doesn't believe in a free press. In my estimation this is much more dangerous than what you describe.

2. This doesn't even register on my scale of the pros and cons of Trump. The Presidency is not about who decides who gets to say what to whom, that is a matter for society at large. As has been described elsewhere in this thread the damage he will do (if he enacts even half of his platform) to immigrant and womens rights, America's standing in the world and free trade will outweigh a hundredfold any small gains you get from a backlash against political correctness.

[masondixon]

> As has been described elsewhere in this thread the damage he will do (if he enacts even half of his platform) to immigrant and womens rights, America's standing in the world and free trade will outweigh a hundredfold any small gains you get from a backlash against political correctness.

But in four years will you admit you're wrong if it doesn't turn out to be the case?

No. It will go on and on and on.

I feel I respond to all this fear mongering constantly:

> immigrant rights

Immigrants are better off with stronger borders. People don't have to suspect them of being illegal. Has that occurred to anyone on the left?

> womens rights?

Trump: I oppose the use of government funds to pay for abortion.

A supreme court judge may be an issue though, but it is unlikely to reverse policy.

> America's standing in the world

It is bad at the moment.

> free trade

Both candidates oppose TPP. Canada wants to talk about NAFTA. Free trade destroys local jobs.

[domfletcher]

I disagree that it's fear mongering and I don't think it's helpful to reasonable debate to call it that. I'm trying to understand what Trump wants to do by looking at what he has said.

On immigrant rights, maybe you're right, maybe all Trump wants to do is secure the borders but he certainly hasn't done much to discourage the nasty parts of his base form thinking otherwise.

On abortion rights you're taking a massive gamble with a hard won and important right. If you're comfortable doing that in the name of marginal free speak then that's for you to decide. I'm not.

The perception of Obama abroad is pretty good still. I live in the UK so I can tell you that he's perceived as one of the few grown ups on the world political stage.

They both may be opposing TPP but only Trump was talking about putting a large tariff on Chinese steel. Irrespective of the issues with global trade, trade wars are definitely bad for everyone involved.

[return0]

> how identity politics can be better expressed

Do you not think that the elections showed that identity politics do NOT matter, instead national politics matter more?

[domfletcher]

I'm talking to OP's specific point around siding with Trump. I think the point is that no body on my side understands what matters in terms of motivating the electorate.